So. You have laid with 5 men...at one time...you decide to contact the police to start a lie....but why??? There is something so sordid, so bizarre about this whole thing...and now to have your name branded about not only as a liar BUT a freak. The guys will be just some dudes who ran a 'train' on a chick and the chick will be the skank who lied to get them in trouble. It just defies logic. :sigh: SMDH.
Which just explains why when I go out with friends, I very seldom drink alcohol; I drink my brew at home in private. :)
If the men in this case had any sexual contact with her at all, they are indeed guilty of something, but that something just may not be illegal. :( :( :(
You should beable to be knocked out on the grund drunk and be left ALONE. There is no excuse for rape and its a li that if women just "control" theselves that would solve the problem.
Yes, I take al the apropriate "safety" steps, BUT I SHULDN'T HAVE TO.
Don't come up in here inferring tha there is something women can do to prevent rape. Full blame always rests with the rapist. PERIOD.
You're deluding yourself if you think your behavior can stop a stronger man from doing whatever he wants to to you. That's a myth.
I suppose it's not impossible for her to have made up the whole story. After all, remember the Duke Lacrosse case a few years back where a black stripper accused three white men of rape?
@ gem2001, calm down sister, I agree with you TOTALLY. And having done VAW work for about 9 years now, having talked to dv and rape survivors, yep, I do agree; the experiences of real women, real families, makes this point, your point abundantly clear.
Perhaps you and others would be surprised how many women still have a difficult time believing this point. Many do after they have been exposed to different, new information. This is also why my colleagues are always trying to do these workshops in elementary schools. We have a lot of work to do, obviously. :)
I believe innocent or guilty that these men have the mentality of a rapist i.e the need to feel dominant among other things which is why they would involve themselves in such a sick act.There will always be people who will involve themselves in some of the sickest ,yet legal,things but you have to look at the psychology behind it.I was telling someone about all the porn stars i've saw in the media who said that they had mental and emotional issues BEFORE getting into the industry, where they regularly took part in such acts.These individuals also discussed the effects of such acts.Such as not being able to have children eating disorder drug and alcholism and more mental emotional and spiritual illness than they had before they got into the industry.All these individuals sound sick and sadistic to me and I would never trust any of these men guilty or innocent.The woman without a doubt seems damaged but i'm only concerned about the men cause i'm heterosexual and I think if anyone of them ever got the chance to cause me harm it would be those men before the woman.They ALL need to seek some mental help
I am in FULL agreement with Truth p.
All this incident does is make light of the fact that there are thousands, if not millions, of women who are sexually assaulted every year, in and outside of this country. All this does is make each of those women, less believable.
Those guys, dirtbags that they are, will be scarred for life because their names have already been put out there (which, in my opinion, is a good thing). She'll be seen as a dirty whore. And TRUE assault victims will be mistrusted.
Disgusting situation all around.
Women are damned if they do and damned if they don't report rape. I'm more likely to believe she was told (by police) what would happen once she got on the witness stand and she didn't want her whole life aired and analyzed in public.
Or that her family pulled back and didn't want the attention
I'm with Monie.
Contrary to popular beleif you don't just cry rape.
And contrary to popular belief there aren't too many women, particularly at 18 who would consent to gang bang involving 5 men.
Rape kits and everything are hella invasive. She would have gone through one. I bet she realized all that she would have to go through with a rape investigation and decided to back out instead of having to relive this nightmare again and again for months or longer.
Unfortunately if she did recant out of fear or what have you that just emboldens these young men to do it again.
First, it is an unfortunate incident that happened to these men in that the woman lied. I don't agree with running a "train" on any female as it is disgusting but it happens. She wanted it and lets be honest, the female controls the situation, she got it.
Second, it’s a surprise that the police/DA would believe this woman who claimed she was tied up if she didn’t have rope marks after being forcibly raped. I would have expected some burns or bruises and yet I fail to understand why they arrested/incarcerated four people without enough conclusive evidence rather than simply her word. If it wasn't for one of the men who video taped it on his cell phone, she would have got away with her crime.
Lastly, this case is a disgrace on the entire judicial system. I was originally offended when hearing the initial charges of rape but am now even more offended that it was NOT TRUE. Shame on her and all women who would lie about being raped.
The case fell apart when the 5th person she accused used a camera phone to tape the sex act. After DA viewed the video the case was dropped. Accusing someone of rape is not something to play with. She was immediately suspended from school.
Oh no, she was from African decent and some of it was caught on a cell phone. Dammnit a sista goes down again.
Flipp said "She wanted it and lets be honest, the female controls the situation, she got it."
Careful, your rapist mentality is showing. Yeah five guys and one woman, its the "female" controlling the situation.
"She wanted it and lets be honest, the female controls the situation, she got it."
Da Hayel? Interesting how the language (and tone) shifted from woman to "female" in your 1st paragraph, flipp.
I'm trying to understand how the young lady "wanting it" translates into the young men not having the option to reject it. She's certainly not responsible for their actions (which is strongly implied by her "controlling" the situation), and while I certainly do not advocate crying wolf about sexual assault in any circumstance, it's really annoying that the subtext is men cannot control themselves - i.e. if a woman puts it out there, he HAS to get it. No, he does not. And frankly, who in the blue blazes wants a man who 1) gets his rocks off sharing a woman with multiple men at once, and 2) has no sense of self-discipline to the extent that he has to go for the carrot simply because it's dangling there? I know I don't.
I'm all for personal responsibility in how women handle ourselves and our sexual agency, but methinks pigs will fly before I see a similar level of scrutiny towards men and their sexual behavior (beyond assault). There likely would have been no case to begin with if those young men could "keep in their pants." But oh.....we're not supposed to go there, right? Because she was "controlling" thangs. Yeah, okay.
I just watched an interview with one of the accused and there's more to the story, obviously.
The police took no DNA, and neglected to publicly report that not all 5 of the men had sex with her.
Was her boyfriend that evil that she would accuse 5 men a of rape to have an "alibi" to avoid him because he was jealous?
Did the boyfriend have anything to do with the 5 meeting and some having sex with the young woman?
See, that's just the thing. People don't understand that in blaming the female victim that they allude to a nefarious implication about men: They're animals that can't control their urges. Therefore, a woman "gets what she deserves" in putting herself in harm's way of an animal.
And isn't that what people are suggesting when they say that a woman can't be raped mid-coitus, even if she changes her mind, because it's gone too far, implying that a man can't stop? Isn't that what people are suggesting when they ask a victim, "Well, what did you think would happen, hanging out with a bunch of guys?" Isn't that what people are suggesting when they say a woman "asked" for it?
And that's a general observation. I'm not commenting about this young woman and whether she lied or was intimidated into recanting her story.
SOMEBODY IS ABOUT TO GET BANNED.
Don't forget EVER that THIS WEBSITE is defense of Black women and girls. The fact that you may feel that a Black woman or girl has done something wrong does not alter that THIS is a website in defense of Black women and girls. Therefore I will not be posting photos nor allowing you to link to photos of this accuser. If you want to conduct a witch hunt and track down her Myspace page, her address, her family WHOEVER. Feel free, but if you attempt to do so in my comments section. You will be erased.
The SYSTEM WORKED- the SYSTEM did what it was supposed to do. Police investigated, but the prosecutor, who has the ULTIMATE AUTHORITY to make prosecutor decisions made a determination that there were inconsistencies in the story and made a determination not move forward.
So if you think you are going to use this forum that I paid for to carry out some extrajudicial attack on this accuser think again. How lucky do you feel? Its amazing how people have tracked down this girl, but didn't life a finger to track down Agustus Fontaine. WOMP WOMP!
I like how's she's been kicked out of school...smh.
I can think of plenty of things young men have done wrong and they almost NEVER get kicked out of school...form domestic violence to rape.
and Flipp what the hell is your problem?
Yeah..your colors are showing....
Great. So now the 5 men who wanted to have sex with one woman in a dirty nbathroom are going to be seen as heroes.
I sincerely hope that young lady's family is supporting her through all of this. I wouldn't be surprised if she tried to harm herself.
Without that video, these guys would be straight on their way to jail.
even if this incident did not meet the LEGAL DEFINITION of rape, clearly something is wrong when there's a situation when a group of men want to have sex with a woman at one time.
ok, legally, they may not be rapists, but clearly, on the moral tip, I wouldn't let my daughter date any of them. PERIOD! WTH were they doing? Just being men? Just because you can do something scandalous and get away with it, doesn't mean you should do it! :( :(
and Flipp, are you a closet rapist? Ever have rape fantasies? :( :(
Just a FYI, the formely accused Hofstra student was kicked out immediately after charges were filed, he has since been reinstated. Hofstra is a private university, (not to mention a mostly white university on Long Island) they will most likely not tolerate criminals on their campus, and especially ones of color, not to mention the accused was no star athlete.
Why is it so hard to believe that one girl would not engage in sex acts with 5 guys? It not normal behavior but you guys have to know what climate of culture we are in these days, especially with the pornification of general pop culture. I mean I have heard such stories before about folks of all races. And if she was drunk she had to be drunk before she got to the party b/c campus venue's do not serve drinks. Where were her friends? When I was in college freshman hung in out in packs all the time.
Was it neccessary to publish the girls mame in the article?
And how bout the "smiley face-thumbs up" pic of the accused - doesn't look like there is too much remorse there.
Tracy, She is now being investigatied by the police for possibly making false accusations. That's against the law, and as a result, the media has no ethical obligation to keep her name from being reported, just like when these men were accused of raping her the media had no obligation to keep from reporting their names. And I bet if you just got exonerated and cleared of charges after someone falsely accused you of a terrible, terrible crime, you might throw up a thumb or two yourself. Running trains is probably morally bankrupt, fairly gross, and super duper risky (in a few ways), but if it's consensual, it's not illegal. If folks want to push for legislation to *make* this illegal, that's a route that can definitely be taken, but right now, today, ahora, these men are not criminals.
I guess parity is par for the course. The same level of contempt and anger people expressed for the men when the rape was first reported, should be the same for young lady who lied about the story.
The men should be relieved that they have been exonerated, but I'm not sure they have fully grasped how close they were to losing their lives. Hi-fiving each other and laughing about it, just rubs me th wrong way. I can deal with them having no remorse since based on the info available, no rape occurred.
However, I still think there's a little more here. I'm wondering what role the "jealous boyfriend" played in all of this.
BLKSeaGoat, I think the hifiving and thumbs up comes from a few things. I'm not sure of their ages, but on TV they look really young, maybe still teenagers. So there's basic immaturity. Another thing is that, luckily for them, the DA and police got to the bottom of things really quickly. So it's not like they were languishing in jail for a long time. They weren't "in the system" long enough to get really depressed, down, forlorn, jaded or bitter. Had they been locked up for weeks or months, or worse, had a conviction overturned years later, it would have been an entirely different scene.
I completely understand that... I hope that they actually learn form this though immaturity and all.
oh yes, right these young men just learned that pulling a five (or more, or less) man "consensual" train on a young woman is not illegal, they will not go to jail. Maybe she was drinking alcohol, maybe not.
SO FLIPP, EXPLAIN TO US ALL WHY A GROUP OF YOUNG MEN, SUPPOSEDLY NORMAL, LAW-ABIDING, UPSTANDING, WOULD WANT TO HAVE GROUP SEX WITH ONE YOUNG WOMAN? So now they will go out in a pack, and have group, consensual sex with one woman any time they chose? :( :(
They had SEX! She lied because she wanted to have sex with more than one partner. It's not illegal, it's a common fantasy and all 6 people acted on it. What is wrong is how all parties are vilified because according to the Judeo-christian code sex is wrong. The problem isn't sexual conduct, or number of partners, it's that she felt GUILT for doing something that is natural. Sadly, even on blogs like this these kids are still villains. Take off your morality glasses, look at the real world and let people be, even if they wanna be freaky in the bathroom.
I think the boyfriend was probably abusive.
BLKSeaGoat, That's what I was referring to when I said the running trains is really risky in numerous ways. Apart from the the other bad things about it, this whole case is a living example. The risk of STIs and STDs is tragicomic. The risk of a false rape accusation because of the girl's shame/fear at having taken part (what happened here.) The risk that if the girl decides mid-coitus that she wants it to stop, the next guy might not stop, in which case all the other guys have to either get him to stop or be accomplices to rape for real. Bascially, voluntarily taking on responsibility for the next guy, and in a setting that involves sex, outnumbered domination, the looming spectre of violence (it's a spectre until it becomes material), and the possibility of Group Think is a recipe for disaster all around.
"Had they been locked up for weeks or months, or worse, had a conviction overturned years later, it would have been an entirely different scene."
I don't know. You're walking out exonorated. I get that. But, is there no shame to the fact that you thought it was a good idea to have sex with four or five of your best friends. I mean that's what it is, right. It's a train on the girl (if she's a willing participant). But, it's also group sex with a bunch of guys.
You walk out...you've got people all around, parents, grandparents, pastor, teacher...everyone says...Oh good. She wasn't raped. These young guys they're innocent. They just decided to have group sex in a bathroom.
I'm thinking that's not a thumbs up moment, and I don't care if you're 14. Immaturity is when you throw a temper tantrum because you don't get what you want. This was just immoral.
And IF this was what this young woman wanted and I've got to tell you, I don't believe she did. It was just immoral. I think we have to many people who are no longer capable of personal shame and self respect.
Jesus.. the more you type scipio the more disgusted I get.
Look, you have excuses for the boys hi fiving... oh they are immature.But they aren't too immature to effectively organise, co-ordinate and record a group gang bang?
Then you have reasons for why it might be dangerous to run a train all very clinical... oh maybe STD's, STI's, if the girl calls time and someone doesn't want to stop....
BUT nowhere are you stating the dangers with regards to the girl. i.e. The danger that this girl might not be in her right mental capacity (depressed, emotionally unstable, drunk, under the influence e.t.c.)... or the idea that no girl in her 'right mind' would want a group of men to run a train on her.
It's like you the only reasons you see group sex as dangerous is because of disease or because the girl might back out. Otherwise, hey .. it's fair game. Maybe I'm reading you wrong and I hope to God I am.
Running trains is risky because it's a stupid and ridiculous thing to do. It's about power and control.Not just individual power, but brandishing it and having your friends share in it. It's about viewing that girl as disposable. It's about not engaging yourself emotionally, it's about loss of self control. It's crossing boundaries and inviting your friends to join in with it.
It's no different to trying to kill someone and asking your friends to come take part in it.
What is it about some men that they can't seem to see beyond their own cravings and actually say no.
I don't care if it's offered on a platter, you don't have to take part, the threat of the law, of withdrawn consent, of liability, of STD's or STI's should not be the only thing stopping people from acting right.
"No doubt thy will be used against future victims."
Maybe so, but lets not forget the ordeal these men went through.
Also, why hasn't her name revealed? Rape shield laws don't apply to false accusers. These men had their names all over the media, yet she's still perceived as a victim.
Sorry for second post, so soon...but can we take this to the next place...
"Not moral; inconsistent with rectitude, purity, or good morals; contrary to conscience or the divine law"
So...if we've got communities teeming with individuals like these...no the heck wonder we can't do anything as a group. What kind of parent do you become if you carry this behavior into adulthood? Being someone's spouse is out of the question. Being an responsible, functioning member of society is not possible.
If you think this is reasonable behavior, we're out of luck.
And, as for Scipio...WTH? Running trains is risky???
It is all I can do not to curse and swear, right now.
Black women, we need to recognize and recognize quickly....the available pool of black men is EVEN SMALLER THAN WE THOUGHT.
Because mixed in with the group that are educated and working and willing to date you...there are individuals sitting and reasoning that...gee, running a train is risky?
Running a train is downright sick and perverted. I mean if it doesn't make you want to throw up...just who the heck are you?
That's why some, NOT ALL, but some men keep popping up on WAOD.
They want to spread a little perversion. If they can turn this into..."See, what she did to these poor guys?" They'll turn the entire focus of this conversation around. They want to divert attention.
For me, real innocence would have been if she accused them of rape...and they were NOT participating at all...no train, no prescence, period.
That's a high five. If they were somewhere ELSE minding their own business and this girl accused them of rape. Then I can understand a "high-five".
These young men could have stayed out of this situation by "just saying NO". You want to say it was her idea...fine.
Did they have no responsiblity to say...no thank you? They should be thanking God (if they believe in a God), that their immoral behavior did not bring them down...this time...and they may be doing that. But, a high five around this incident is still vulgar in my humble opinion.
I understand this is a site for black women and girls but is this also for male bashing, particularly that of black men? No one is morally innocent in this situation but let's not call or be part of incarcerating black men innocent of any crime simply because they do not fit your moral standards. Crude as they were for accepting her offering of herself to all of them- she was just as crude for extending that offer in the first place.Women's sexuality should not be something that still abides by the Madonna-Whore complex. Many women do and consent to things like this because they seriously want to and outside of their sexual nature are as normal and as functional as anyone else. Mentally this young woman had what it took to even get to Hofstra in the first place- an accomplishment of seeking and trying t obtain higher education that many just don't, can't or will not do.
It is my hope that when she has time to reflect on this that she does so in privacy and with a deep understanding of the situation in its entirety. Many women- especially black women and girls are oversexualized and victim-blamed because they think we ALL must have wanted it or we ALL asked for it or we ALL lied about being assaulted/raped/molested. SO when someone does lie we have a responsibility to the victims to point out that there IS a difference between what happened in her situation and what happend to you and to make that CLEAR.
As a former rape victim myself I take MAJOR offense to MY rape being likened to ANYONE'S consensual sex act, no matter how morally deviant or incomprehensible they were consent is a long ways from being beaten half to death and violated.
YME, wuote me in full:"Running trains is probably morally bankrupt, fairly gross, and super duper risky (in a few ways),"
Yme, Also, what part of "disiater all around" seemed unworthy of being cited by you?
oh look at the rapists and rape enablers come out of th woodwork.
Sorry Azalea, but tha dog won't hunt here, but nice try. First a wman can be raped without being beaten. Its about consent and as a cmenter noted before in a group sex situation, that consent shifts
Second you are intellectually dishonest to say anyone on thiblog played any part inincarcerating thse precious upstanding citizens. THES SYSTEM WORKED!!! They were arested on probable cause and released when the DA couldn't establish a rpe beyond a reasonable doubt.
Be offended! I'm offended too that this is going to be used to promote the myth that somehow ropes bruises and beatings are required to establish rape.
I'm offended too at theduble standard in the Black community that rallies behind every miscreant... as long as they have a penis, but considers Black women and girls disposable.
You don't have al theanswers so stop acting as if you were in that bathroom.
Did the purorted cellphone footage shw the begginning middle or end?
Did the accuser consent to guy 1,2,3,4 an 5 or just 1?. Did the fact that th acuser feared the release of the tape play any part in this decision?
So come on and brng it rapists, enablers and apologists! I've got a response for each of your inane statements on your victory lap.
@ Azalea, respectfully, this site does not bash men, BUT WE DO AFFIRM AND DEFEND OUR RIGHT, OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO CALL OUT NEGATIVE, CRIMINAL, FILTHY BEHAVIOUR BY OUR "BROTHERS" AGAINST OUR SISTERS AND CHILDREN. PERIOD.
This behavior takes many forms, i.e., domestic terrorism(violence), rape, stalking, child abuse, harassment, and other crimes in general. We always want to holla, "de white man, de white man", but get weak and timid and silent when our own people, our own "brothers" committ crimes against women and children, against our community.
I don't bash anybody; but as for me, if you don't want to be treated like a criminal, like a rapist, like an imperialist, etc., then WTH don't act like one. "Moral standards"? What moral standard did these men uphold by having group-sex-as-team-sport on one young woman? HTH does any human being "consent" to this behavior? Perhaps the woman got scared once the video was mentioned, intimidated her family would see it and recanted her story. Did that even occur to you? When it comes to violence, all human beings must be held accountable; men must be held accountable for their crimes against our humanity, women must be more vigilant about our safety AND PERHAPS LESS TRUSTING, make demands for our safety and well being and women must stop making sly excuses for men's behavior. :( :(
Qualifying the experience of a person who has been violated is a bad practice as well.
Many rape victims AREN'T beaten half-way to death and then violated. Based on your glib and reactionary assessment to the comments and this post, the majority of rapes that occur and are reported should be relegated to an incovenient sexual act.
I realize that you are a rape survivor, but I take issue with the fact that you place your victimization above that of ANYONE else who was beaten and then sexually assaulted. Rape is RAPE! There is no varying degrees or sub-categories that makes a date rape WORSE than a random sexual assault on the street by a sociopath.
Should these men be jailed? According to the Nassau County DA, probably not. In this case, those men are lucky to have escaped with their freedom and their lives. If they continue to engage in this type of behavior they probably will end up in jail anyway.
One more thing; clear difference between being NOT GUILTY and innocent. I seriously call into question the development of an 18 year old's sexual identity that sompels her to want to have simultaneous sex with 5 different men she doesn't even know. Call me biased.
I'm rereading your post. I do see the comments you mentioned. I should have quoted you completely. For this, I apologize. I thought you were on another one of those...but, hey...these guys weren't really that bad tangents. All they did was #$@... I was so incensed at the beginning I was seeing stars early on in the post.
So, I was seeing too much red to see much else, clearly.---------------------------------@Azalea"Many women do and consent to things like this because they seriously want to and outside of their sexual nature are as normal and as functional as anyone else."
I don't even know what this means. And, outside of their sexual nature...are as normal....WTH? What are you saying?
If a young woman thinks sex with four or five men at the same time is a good idea...this is NOT normal. This would mean that there is something else going on in her life, wouldn't it? How could you function normally, if occassionally, you need to have sex with multiple partners simulataneously.
What are you saying? I think I'm misunderstanding. Because this does not sound like the women would be normal or functioning well at all.
If she lied...this is seriously bad. On this we agree. I think it should be a crime to lie about being raped. It makes it harder for the brave young women who do decide to pursue their cases.
That's why I said...the best defense for a young man, is not to be there in the first place.
Quote: "As a former rape victim myself I take MAJOR offense to MY rape being likened to ANYONE’S consensual sex act"
As much as I sympathize with the horrors of what happened to you, I have no idea what happened in this case. I don't think anyone on this site compared rape with consensual sex. That wouldn't make sense.
If no rape took place, these young men should not spend one day in jail. PERIOD. They would be guilty of no crime beyond stupidity.
Quote:"no matter how morally deviant or incomprehensible they were consent is a long ways from being beaten half to death and violated"
Did anyone make this comparison, here? Here is my point. Our families have evaporated. Our children are growing up in single parent homes (not by their own choice). We can do better. We should do better. Our choices are killing our communities. Plain and simple.
We can compare apples and oranges or we just speak the truth. Our community is not surviving and will not survive until we grow the heck up. We've got tough decisions to make.
--------------------------------For anyone else who has a problem with "my" moral standards.--------------------------------If you don't want to use "my" moral standards. By all means, don't. But, if after you're exonorated for rape because you're were just running a consensual train.
Don't be surprised if, although I'm happy you were exonorated, I'm still sick at the thought, that you thought group sex with one girl was a good idea...it wasn't a criminal idea, but it still was not a good idea.
Yme, no problem. This is one of those issues where nonsense can seep into the discussion really easily, and that can definitely lead to misunderstandings and misreadings.
Where did I say all? The general comparison given was not mine but when people start to say things that blur the lines between consent and someone simply being embarrassed it IS offensive to rape victims, take it from one it is VERY offensive. Not every rape victim was beaten and raped but not every person who accuses someone of rape is a rape victim and neither is he or she someone that is without fault when they have lied about it.
My point was that saying consenting to sex with 5 men out of naivete of young adulthood youth is in NO way comparable to being forced via NOT consenting or not being able to consent. There is a difference between being so drunk you could barely see what's in front of you while someone takes advantage of you and having sex with someone you don't know and later regreting you did it because you got caught and calling it rape. I realize that many people see regret as comparable to rape but I most certainly do not.
Was I there? No of course I was not. But given that the biggest person in her corner, the DA backed down when shown the video and then she recanted it says a lot about what we don't know. Whatever the video showed or did not show we know it told a different story than what she had originally told the police of her being tied up and held down. If you would , I have no qualms with posting the link to the report that says this. It is THAT information that has taken me to the side of skepticism and away from villifying those I thought initially to be undeniable rapists.
At first glance it stands to reason that trusting her when she says she was raped is the way to go. As biased as it is, it is always better to truth that at minimum the woman was raped- whether or not its sure she can identify who the rapist was is something for police and the courts to handle. She was outnumbered by men who are presumably much bigger than she is and she presumably doesn't do this type of thing for a living and even if she did- it's a well known documented fact that prostitutes and other sex workers are not immune to rape. It is fact that these young men who I have ALREADY stated are NOT the shining star of morality who would have been sent to prison for -according to a video and according to the accuser- a lie.
Just because she recanted doesn't mean it was consensual sex.
"What are you saying?"
If it required elucidation, I doubt s/he'd be willing to say it; it's so much easier to mumble out bad ideas.
It is interesting what is or isn't a "fact" in this discussion. People who seem to know exactly what happened in this case seem to also know exactly what happened in the case of all these "consensual" trains that have been run; they're not just anecdotes, heard from a friend of a friend, or read on the wall of a bathroom stall. No, they're facts.
Azalea, please, just stop. NOW! :(
NO. NO. Azalea keep talking. You're writing my next post for me.
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