The Other "Taboo" Topic: Interracial Dating for Black Women
Friday, August 14, 2009 at 10:16AM Gina, The Blogmother Cross-posted by Faith at Acts of Faith In Love & Life blog
I was deciding whether to write this as two separate posts but I thought of the intersectionality of this latest dire prediction unmarried childlessness for black women at MSNBC with what was a successful effort at combating it should be explored. The Free Your Mind dating event that was held in Los Angeles nearly two weeks ago was well-received!! Look for it to come to a city near you.
The organizer for the seminar, Fleace Weaver was interviewed by NPR .
Fleace Weaver, an L.A. socialite and the organizer of the night's event, got the idea after noticing that many of her black friends had it all — a career, house, independence — but no man. Weaver is black. She dates men of all colors — black, white, brown — and wants more black women to do the same. "I am an international lover. All right; I am an equal opportunity lover," Weaver says. "That means I love who is good to me. I don't want anybody just because they're a certain color."
Yes! It bears repeating since a quick peek at the comment section at NPR had some pushback, but nothing compared to the all-out attack by the naysayers and denigrators at another forum that linked to the article. I included it so those that may still question how many are focused on uplifting black women versus those ready to attack any progress are bearing fangs at the mere idea of them making affirming choices! These Internet Ike Turners and outright haters take pleasure in causing confusion and holding women back. It's imperative that we keep moving forward, try something different and let the miserable hang with their kind.
In the Marriage Eludes High-Achieving Black Women article at MSNBC, some of the usual stats are bandied about. If you're successful you'll be less likely to marry or have to marry down blah blah. And be childless.
Michelle Obama may have become an archetypal African-American female success story — law career, strong marriage, happy children — but the reality is often very different for other highly educated black women.
They face a series of challenges in navigating education, career, marriage and child-bearing, dilemmas that often leave them single and childless even when they’d prefer marriage and family, according to a research study recently presented at the American Sociological Society’s annual meeting in San Francisco.
One big reason why these women remained childless is, as one might expect, that they go unmarried, experts say. “Their marriage chances have declined,” Brueckner explained. “This may sound trivial but one reason is that they outnumber men in this education group.” The disparity in education is important because Americans have a strong tendency to marry those with equal levels of education, a trend that has only grown stronger since World War II. “So since there are fewer men with the same education,” Brueckner continued, “you either have to find another group you can marry or you are out of luck. You have nowhere to go.”
Highly educated black men tend to “outmarry” (marry outside race, religion or ethnicity) at a higher rate than black women, researchers say. Think of Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates or Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. Both married white women. (Funny how they chose two men who have displayed they have NO VALUE to us!!)
Black women are either much more reluctant to marry outside their race, or do not have the opportunity to do so. The answer is both, Clarke said. In interviews with a large number of black women, she found that community pressures on black women to marry black men can be more intense than the reverse. Of course if highly educated black women felt free to have children outside of marriage, they could still have a family. When some white women make that choice it is often seen as a kind of liberal empowerment.
But according to Clarke, black women are concerned about looking "ghetto." Public interpretation of our actions matter for everyone, but especially for black women, Clarke explained. “When it comes to the issue of black women and should or should they not make a choice to have a child alone, these women are very much aware that the decision to do it makes people question their class status. We associate single unwed child bearing with poor African-American women.” Not all women who remain unmarried and childless are unhappy about it. But for a set of sometimes complex social reasons, some high-achieving black women find themselves disappointed.
This article brings up some interesting points. Married black women and apparently these "reluctantly single & childless" achieving black women are NOT having children at the rate of the underclass. That should be considered a seriously alarming trend because of the conditions of the residential areas and the mentality of many who are there. Your best and brightest not only won't be able to compete, they won't exist.
Now back to the NPR article which refutes this "you will die alone with cats theory":
But Weaver argues that Mr. Right doesn't have to be Mr. Black. "There's no reason for us to believe we have to be alone. The only thing that's keeping us from finding someone is that we limit ourselves," Weaver says.
If black women are set on "black love only," Weaver says they may be passing up good men. "Some of you all out here have gotten some signals, and you all missed them. Or you got signals, and you all blew him off because he wasn't chocolate," Weaver says. "But we've got to get over that — unless you want to be home with chocolate cats."
Indeed the MSNBC article glosses over the indoctrination tactics used to hold black women back to me. It also doesn't address the intra-black ethnic and cultural differences and how only certain groups of women have a more difficult time deciding to date caliber versus skin color. Which we've discussed here at the BWE (black woman empowerment) blogs. There are plenty of men available for those willing to seek them out and it would be most beneficial if articles like this would speak truthfully and tell black women to stop limiting themselves.
We are free to be with whomever we want, to marry or remain single, to become a mother or not, to live anywhere and be treated with the respect and accord bestowed upon any other woman.
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Reader Comments (77)
The comment section at NPR was enough for me. Especially the guy who said that an asian woman told him that black women treat their men worse than any other race of women.
"...glosses over the indoctrination tactics used to hold black women back to me. .."
Jewish mothers want their daughters to marry a successful Jewish man. I don't think there is anything unusual about women being socialized to marry someone of their own ethnic group. Most so-called minorities do this.
I don't have any problem with IR dating but honestly some of the people pushing IR dating seem to push White men as being the savior of Black women. (Black women should be our own saviors). Which they are not. If someone naturally finds themselves in an IR relationship then more power to them. I'm all for it as long as the relationship is a healthy one.
And that I think should be the focus for single Black women, healthy relationships rather than the race of a potential partner. So whether he is Black, White or Other, so be it but just make sure it's a positive relationship.
As for all of these studies done on us that tell us how bad we are doing; I'm very skeptical about them. The media has for as long as there has been a media in America painted a negative picture of who we are.
So while Black women may indeed have difficulties finding a mate I wonder if it's easy for anyone and why are we the ones who are painted as lonely losers?
We have to be careful what we believe. Sometimes I think about whether what the media says about us is a chicken and egg which came first situation. Did we become less likely to marry because that's just how it worked out or did all of these media stories and studies make us believe this was the case and we simply became self-fulfilling prophecies?
Faith, I concur on your take on the msnbc.com article. Their analysis didn't go far enough or in depth enough, but then I guess they only had so many words/space alloted to them. Tamika Raymond's piece on huffingtonpost.com (or colorism within the bc) was more in depth.
I also checked out comments to the article made on the NPR site, and there's a lot of the old tired arguments also being trotted out there. Particularly that educated BW are only single because they think they're too good for regular BM (i.e., those without professional degrees or a certain income level). Lots of the BW should reach down and help a brotha out through marriage. I find that argument so irritating. Fine for any BW who wants to do that, but BW shouldn't HAVE to do that. No other woman in the world seems to be expected to do that. Other men seek to achieve in the world to meet their own goals and to be able to compete for the kind of woman they want. If a BM wants a "top drawer" woman, he should have to earn that. Just like women who want a "top drawer" man have to earn it by looking a certain way. Nothing in this life that you get from another person is free.
@Monie What goes on in the Jewish community has NOTHING to do with this post. If you personally don't support the free agency of black women to choose whomever they wish to mate with you should be a silent observer for the remainder of this conversation.
We are not going to be sidetracked into a debate about this. You are blocking the path that other women may wish to take and I will NOT allow that.
You either support the actions of empowerment even when they go in directions you yourself wouldn't take based on the needs of individuals or you don't.
I don't see what the big problem is. Black women should expand their options and put their needs first just as black men have always done. The only reason that someone would have a problem with that is if they don't want what's best for African American women. So, even if YOU don't agree with IR dating and would never date someone outside your race you should not object to other sisters doing that if that is their choice.
@fdow
Well I'll tell you like you tell some others responding to you; obviously you stopped reading after the first sentence of my comment. If you had read further you would have understood that I support Black women doing whatever they chose and what is best for us.
Maybe you think conflict is important to a discussion? I don't know but no where in my comment did I say that I didn't support the empowerment of Black women.
And I also said:
"If someone naturally finds themselves in an IR relationship then more power to them. I’m all for it as long as the relationship is a healthy one."
Please explain how that is saying that Black women shouldn't "mate" with whomever they choose?
And even if I did disagree (which I didn't) is the comment section of What About Our Daughters? supposed to be the amen choir or a place for healthy conversations?
Despite how much we try to deny it, physical attraction is the base impetus of romantic couplings. Sure, there are myriad factors that play into it, but attraction is the base.
I'm bringing this up because, from what i've seen personally, a lack of physical attraction is what's keeping black women from being receptive to the advances of men of other races.
I don't think its so much about them not wanting to "betray the race" or even that men of other race don't find black women to be extremely attractive. Even in college I remember a few of my white teammates being enthralled with a few of the sistas on campus, but scared to approach because they (rightly) felt that they'd get dismissed.
I guess my point is that if you want to address this issue, someone has to pay attention to the giant elephant in the room.
@monie I read for comprehension. I saw your one affirming comment that you threw in as well as your straw man argument about Jews and your "I don't see why white men are being put forth".
The bottom line is had YOU bothered to read the post you would have seen that the point was for African-American women in particular to stop letting the indoctrination tactics keep them compliant to being used and make choices. Which they are NOT doing now.
African women and Caribbean women are dating interracially in larger numbers. It is about seeking men of caliber not color. Which was quoted by the founder of the Free Your Mind event.
Despite your protestations to the contrary you were trying to limit choices so you should remain a silent observer since you don't agree with this effort. Discussions don't include DISSENT and CHAOS.
You are trying to get black women to stay put and I want them to be free. No underhanded statements that contradict that will be allowed to go UNADDRESSED.
@the champ, that's an interesting comment coming from a man. I've heard plenty of black women say that they don't find men of other races attractive and I'll tell you the same thing I tell them, they're full of it.
I think many black women have a case of sour grapes; they assume, erroneously I might add, that men of other races won't want them. So they decide to not want them first. How do I know this? Because I've spent years actually talking to black women about this issue. Many of them express surprise when they discover that men of other races find them attractive and are interested in decent relationships with them.
Having dated interracially for more than a decade before I married, I can't tell you the number of times I've had 'meetings in the ladies room' with black women who've approached me to discuss this subject. The conversation is always overwhelmingly positive with most of them asserting that they assumed that a man of other races would only want them for sex. I'm like honey, all men of all races want you for sex. That's a man thing, not a race thing.
Bottom line is, why do we persist in promoting this bizarre notion that black women are somehow born in this world with a 'nothing but a brother' mentality? Isn't that the craziest sounding mess you've ever heard? I understand that people might make a conscious decision to only date within certain groups, but I can assure you that in most cases it is NOT innate. Biologically we are programmed to perpetuate the race...that is HUMAN RACE. There are certain physical markers that women in general find attractive. There are also sociological markers that women in general find attractive and none of this is biologically based.
I don't see anything wrong if a black woman marries only a black man. I can not call it a taboo or orthodox thoughts.
@thechamp I got sidetracked but wanted to address your comment about black women not being attracted to other men. Yes as Roslyn pointed out that's hogwash!!
Part of the indoctrination tactic is for certain African-American men to remind women of slavery and the rape that happened as if this is the landscape of what's going on TODAY.
If anything you can go to any number of websites helmed by various black men who shout very loudly that they find black women unattractive, not marriage material and unwanted.
This message has been internalized so they think no one else wants them. It's psychological warfare to keep women feeling desperate so they will accept crumbs and allow themselves to be used without questioning it.
We cannot abide by this silently any longer.
***edited to include quotations***
@roslyn holcomb
"I think many black women have a case of sour grapes; they assume, erroneously I might add, that men of other races won’t want them. So they decide to not want them first."
I see your point. It can see how it would be a form of preemptive protection.
I also think that widely held sexual myths do play a part in this feeling as well. I personally know women, educated women who might be attracted to a non-black man but assume that a white or Asian man wouldn’t be able to satisfy them sexually.
@fdow
"If anything you can go to any number of websites helmed by various black men who shout very loudly that they find black women unattractive, not marriage material and unwanted."
While I’m not denying this to be true, I don’t think you can dismiss the attraction issue i brought up as just another “indoctrination tactic” by black men.
I mean, even lighter skinned black men are sometimes openly ridiculed by black women as not being or looking “masculine” enough.
In my opinion, this particular issue has more to do with the black community’s infatuation with hyper-heterosexually (which is usually thought to be best embodied by a straight, dark skinned man over 6′ tall) than an intentional ploy to make black women feel unattractive and unwanted.
I think addressing the hyper-heterosexually issue would get more black women to consider other options than just saying they’ve been brainwashed by black men.
@thechamp This has nothing to do with light-skinned black men and again who was the one spreading that nonsense? Darker skinned black men.
You are using your opinion to frame an argument that deflects responsibility from the black men who have engaged in this indoctrination. As well as the ones who silently support it because they all benefit from it.
So I will tell you what I told another commenter. You are at a black woman's blog discussing issues that pertain to our denigration and potential uplift as changes are made. The truth of the situation has to be acknowledged - ALL OF IT - not just what makes some feel comfortable.
You are not an authority on this subject and since you don't agree and have made it known are now being disruptive to the process for those of us who know this to be a fact.
Why you assume you have the right to tell others what are and aren't the issues of importance on a blog for black women is a problem. Perhaps you are not used to being given parameters but you have them now. So if you wish to participate you need to respect the women reading this blog.
I'm a black man. I have 3 older sisters, and they've all dated mostly non-black men. One of them is married to a white man, and they have a child together.
They'd all much rather be with black men primarily - in the same innate way that most whites would likely initially seek out white partners. It's just the natural order of things. Not necessarily because they've been "programmed." Although I understand your point.
But, I'd also say that, in my sisters, as well as other black women I know, there's a recognition and familiarity of a shared history and experience (especially amongst the educated) that most would likely prefer in a mate, that might also be keeping them from seeking partners outside our group.
My sisters kept themselves open to other groups of men. But I remember hearing about their dates with non-black men (especially white men) whom they felt just didn't "get it" when discussing subjects pertaining to race relations in this country, and all over the world - not the way a comparable black man might; white privilege, white male privilege, the present-day ramifications of centuries-old physical and psychological oppression of minority groups, etc, etc, etc... Essentially, issues that affected them directly, every day, but that their white partners just couldn't quite fully grasp - which eventually led to other problems within each relationship.
And, in those moments, a kind of frustration and maybe even longing develops in them, and they end up ambivalent about relationships with those otherwise "good" non-black men, because what feels like a rather salient piece of understanding is missing - that shared "black experience," irrespective of gender.
Now, I want to reiterate that these are all things that I've been told by black women (family and friends) I know who've dated non-black men.
And I'd say the same thing about black men - at least, the black men that I know, myself included.
All that said... as a black man, I have absolutely no qualms about black women being with non-black men. As someone suggested above, having a healthy, happy relationship is obviously key, no matter what color the person's skin is. And that goes with every pairing, and in every direction.
One thing that doesn't sit well with me is when someone who's dating outside of their race does so while demonizing the opposite sex within their race (no matter what race or gender) - lumping an entire group together, unfairly - and using that as justification for why they are dating outside their race. I've seen men do it; and I've seen women do it. Either way, it doesn't do anyone any good.
@fdow
"You are using your opinion to frame an argument that deflects responsibility from the black men who have engaged in this indoctrination. As well as the ones who silently support it because they all benefit from it."
I acknowledge that we (black men) haven't been the best champions of black women, and, by extension, black children. This is an inarguable fact.
My point is that there are other issues at play, and I don't know how beneficial it is for us to ignore how much the concept of hyper-heterosexuality influences us when it comes to who we tend to choose as romantic partners and why.
I don't see how expressing a difference in opinion is "disruptive to the process". There's no hidden agendas here. I'm not attempting to let black men off the hook or minimize the issues facing black women. I just brought up a relevant issue that relates to the topic and directly pertains to your denigration and potential uplift.
Lastly...
"The truth of the situation has to be acknowledged – ALL OF IT – not just what makes some feel comfortable."
...I agree 100 percent.
That argument that black women are innately less attracted to lighter skinned men than to darker skinned men is such warmed-over nonsense. If that were truly the case, explain black women's love/lust for men who look like Ben Jealous or Wentworth Miller, or even Christopher Williams and Gregory Abbott back in the day (i.e., men who look more white than black but who identify as black)? Yet, if those men identified as white or something else non-black, BW suddenly claim they have no attraction to them. Complete hooey. That is social indoctrination and BC PC.
"There are plenty of men available for those willing to seek them out and it would be most beneficial if articles like this would speak truthfully and tell black women to stop limiting themselves."
Faith, the powers that be in the white community and black absolutely under NO circumstances wish to see growing numbers of BW marrying interracially.
Especially to WM and most especially to well to do, influential, powerful, and successful WM. Those with something on the ball.
A few of us here and their don't "rock the boat" too much. But, if our numbers continue to grow, it's considered a problem.
And that's why there's a virtual black out when it comes to WM/BW couples in the public eye. Mover and shaker types.
That's why Evia's blog and others are so successful, popular, and hated by many.
Because a picture says a thousand words. Many folks - black, white, and other had NO idea that well known household name type WM are married to sista's.
The powers that be want to KEEP it that way too.
White society (and black) does NOT want the word out about this population.
Because what we're exposed to enough, becomes normalized in the public imagination. Nobody in America wants WM/BW couples and our children to be normalized and therefor fully accepted on a grand scale.
Now the "wigger" types are one thing (that's not viewed as much of a loss), but the preppy white collar professional ones that white folks envision THEIR daughters and granddaughters marrying is a WHOLE 'nother matter.
This is where things can get "dicey".
I married well and when you do that you help to secure your children's future.
A legacy, money, property, etc... is passed down.
Most white folks don't want that type of transfer to take place.
So we will NEVER hear the TRUTH that there is no shortage of good men, wonderful husbands and future fathers.
It is TABOO to "go there" as they say.
A firestorm erupts at the mere mention of the suggestion that BW look for the best mate regardless of "race".
So there will continue to be the same tired, and untruthful, analysis and commentary of what ales BW in the dating and mating market.
How about doing a seminar around central Florida?
@ Zoopath...What does most Asian women know personally about bw other than the sterotypical? This aw must have really been into bm and that is where she got her information.
Roslyn Holcomb; fdow: You ladies are living in denial.
If I had a dollar for every time I heard or overheard a Black woman talk about a pink penis with a look ranging between trepidation and disgust, I could at least take a trip to TJ Maxx to buy a pair of discounted Nine West shoes. In other words, it's not something that is regularly discussed, but it is commonly enough discussed that I can't imagine someone actually denying that a strong preference for Black men and a relative distaste for non-Black men exists among Black women.
"Nobody in America wants WM/BW couples and our children to be normalized and therefor fully accepted on a grand scale."
Now I misspoke here obviously. What I should have said was the majority of Americans don't wish WM/BW couples and families normalized and fully accepted.
Obviously those of us in IR marriages/relationships - with and without children - (and those who love and support us) wish to be thought of as everyone else and not unusual/controversial/"special".
And we certainly count. It's just that we don't make up the majority.
Great post. I am of Caribbean descent, born in England, raised in Canada, now living in the States.
Statistics show that African and Caribbean females marry out 30% in the UK. I'm not sure of the stats for African and Caribbean females in Canada, but know several Black Canadian females who have married non-Black men.
I'm not sure why African American females are so caught up with "only a Black man". I understand the need to believe that you will meet your dark prince and ride off into the sunset. But, you should be open to all quality men.
There are good men out there, and I can see no reason to restrict yourself to Black men, when they are not doing the same. Although I am married to a wonderful Black man, if I find myself single again, there will be no restrictions on who I date as far as race is concerned.
Good to see so many African American women speaking out about this issue -- it's very important for Black women not to feel loyalty to those who have no such loyalty to them. Waiting for a non-existent Black man for your entire life is a waste of time and kind of pathetic.
@thechamp I allowed your comment through and will state for the last time that your insistence of putting forth your theories that you admittedly don't know are valid as adding value to this is why you need to stop trying to force your opinions as facts. Even after being asked to be move on you still must get the last word and let your voice be heard as an authority. That doesn't do anything to help the current situation facing black women.
@jen Ah where would be without the Internet Ike Turners and Naysayers coming here to discourage our progress? You can live your life the way you want and we will live ours as we please and encourage as many AA women in the USA to MATE OUT OR DIE OUT. That's the bottom line. Find someone who can you can sustain a THRIVING relationship with where you flourish and if you have children can move on to provide generational wealth or live a life of struggle, hardships and "getting by".
@shadowandact I find it interesting you think it's the "natural order". I find it to be based on your social circles, residential areas and outlook. You are also not acknowledging the fact that AA women in all-black settings have been specifically told to only look for black males as partners, to give a brotha a chance, to uphold the race. Meanwhile the typical black males is not told this and is allowed to be a rolling stone and roam free. Either way the message is getting out how ridiculous it is because so many blacks are soooo offended by the mere idea you can tell the message is being dismantled and they don't like it.
"I can’t imagine someone actually denying that a strong preference for Black men and a relative distaste for non-Black men exists among Black women."
I can't imagine someone actually denying that preferences are strongly dictated by CULTURE. And that in African-American culture BW showing open interest in non BM is a STRONGLY frowned upon taboo.
And that in African-American culture BM showing an open interest in non BW is accepted and often encouraged.
I also can't believe that most people don't realize that MOST African-American BW have been carefully socialized to demean and masculinize themselves if it boosts a BM's self-worth in the process.
Such as associating darkness- when a BW HERSELF is dark - with masculinity.
That's what these crude African-American BW fixated on the complexion of WM's private parts are actually doing.
If darkness is considered more "masculine" in these more often than not black male identified BW's minds, what does that say about themselves and THEIR dark skin? And most importantly what does it say about their level of femininity compared to WW and other light-skinned women?
Often, AA BW specifically spout off at the mouth like indoctrinated puppets (which many unfortunately are) without realizing the FULL (and unpleasant) implications of their statements.
If I had a dollar for every AA BW who shot herself (and her sisters) in the FOOT with her mouth I'd be ROLLING in dough.
Thankfully, the tide IS slowing turning for smart BW and IMPORTANT things like family orientation, income level, decency, etc... not "race" and complexion are being considered when it comes to men.
After all these are the things that matter in this world.
NON AA BW - who make up the majority on this planet - realize this simple fact.
And that's why they're not suffering from a 70% single rate and over 80% OOW birthrate like AA black women are. Their priorities are correct and they haven't been indoctrinated by their cultures to shoot themselves in the foot.
A recommended article pertaining to this issue can be found at the below link...
http://muslimbushido.blogspot.com/2009/06/open-letter-to-african-american-women.html
Growing up I was always the black girl who like white boys. Most of my guy friends were white and till this day most of my celebrity crushes are white men. Like many black women I felt the pressure from my family to marry a black men. My dad openly discusses he hatred for white men.
I date both, but primarily white men. I heard a couple of my friends say they can't get with a pink penis. Many of them have one horrible relationship with one black men after another, but won't date a white or Asian guy because they look corny and boring. I tell them they are being silly. I'm sure black men don't say the same thing about women of other races vagina or their way of life. These same friends of mine catch a fit when we see attractive black men with not so attractive women of other races. Sidenote: I find it funny how all these sites tell black women to get in shape when looking for a man, but I rarely see fat white or hispanic women without a mate.
As someone who just finishe one graduate degree and starting another this month, I can tell you I rarely see a black man in my class. But I'm not looking for one either. Black women have to come to grip that marriage with a black man may not be a viable option
LAWD have mercy. The IR discussion finally made it on to a WAOD post. With expected results. Perhaps it is my old age, but I've just reached a point in life where I don't really care how other people find what they seek in a relationship. UNless its abusive or dangerous, if you like it, I love it. Life is too short for me to worry about how other people get the companionship they deserve. The idea of anyone else discussing anyone else's relationship choices hearkens back to slavery in a different way.
We don't own each other. i don't own Black men, they don't own me. If they want to marry a white, asian, or hispanic woman, that is their choice. They have the right to prefer whoever they prefer and I have the option likewise to do the same. IF by my "preferences" I insure that I never get married, THAT WAS MY CHOICE. Anytime Black women want to, they can choose to broaden their horizons, if they don't then stay single. I would say the same thing to Black women who live in cities where the Black male to female ratio is 1:19. Again, if you foolishly think you are going to beat the odds, then that's your choice. The job market is the same way, if you choose to sit in Detroit unemployed and refuse to consider the possibility of relocating, then that is your option, live with it. If however you decide to relocate somewhere where there are more jobs, then again, that's your choice. I don't need to remind the unemployed person that they could have moved. Why bother.
To the troll that brought up the hue of sex organ (ignorant one), you have to be what? 18? 16? 12? What you said is insulting to men, BLACK MEN IN PARTICULAR. You mean to tell me the only reason Black women prefer Black men is the color of their penile regions? Troll, please!
But yes, I find it odd than in 2009, we're still having this discussion.
I don't think its a message thats "getting out" I think its a reality check for Black women, if you want to get married and you are limiting yourself to a group of men that think they are as rare as a precious diamond ( Black college educated, no kids, no record with a job), then prepare to be ring-less. There hasn't been some national "dating out" movement. I think a lot of these women are making these choices independently and then they find support online. Or women have been contemplating the issue and they find affirmation online. To the hardliners, let them be hardliners as long as they leave you in peace. Slavery is over. I'm not going to debate with an idiot that thinks they have an ownership interest in my person, just obliterate them should they try to claim that non-existent property interest. We don't negotiate with human traffikers do we? No, we throw them in jail and move alone. Any Black person arguing that I don't have the freedom to make decision regarding the most personal aspects of my life believes in slavery. I don't care what they think.
Ok I don't want to have to go in and start editing the After 5 talk about male appendages. So let's just end that now.
Thank you Fdow excellent posts.I'd like to say also that it has been my experience that my aunt not only married a man outside her race but she also had children by a dbr unavailable black man who this white man also accepted loved and provided for as his own.He also does the same for their grandchildren.I know that no situation is typical and I most certainly am not trying to say that All men will accept a black woman with children.Or any woman with children for that matter.What I am saying is that you never know what good things are in store for you unless you look at ALL the possibilities.There are billions of people in this world. In my opinion no woman who does'nt want to be alone forever should accept the fact that they are deemed unworthy by some to love, and stay single cause my aunt had three kids and still got a GOOD man.They seem very happy he has always been a loving person.When she met him she had less than he had.He really added to her life.My aunt is a hardworking, educated, loving person who has always provided for herself and children even before she met him.Also without the help of my cousin's father.But she still sought out a man that'd add to her and her children's life and that's exactly what she got and is what she deserves.She really is a good person.
@fdow, yeah I know its stupid, but sadly even in 2009 I heard some of my black girlfriends(even the college educated ones say it). My jaw dropped when they said to me. A lot of black women stil buy into the black man sexual prowess myth.
"Any Black person arguing that I don’t have the freedom to make decision regarding the most personal aspects of my life believes in slavery." --gem2001
To take that point a little further: any person who thinks they have a right to give their input on this subject is out of order and out of line. What adult would let a stranger's input determine how to choose a mate and a father for their children?
The twists and turns in this conversation are amazing. Thankfully, some of us are brave.
Sorry to bring up the "Male Appendage Color Hue Argument for Mate Selection(MACHAMS). But it was so stupid and so often repeated in this argument, I couldn't let the glaring ignorance and SIMPLE-ness pass me by.
I mean REAL TALK, its not the kind of thing to stare at or meditate on.Not like shoulders or arm muscles, legs, butts, teeth, hairline, hygeine, aftershave, excessively long back hair or any of the other things that may or may not physically attract you to a man. To take it a step further, if the point of selecting a mate is to be a provider, protector, a compainion and a helpmate once you pass the minimum threshold of "attractivness" what role dose a man's physical appearance play in the relationship. UNLIKE men, women will "compensate" for physical attractiveness. He might not "look" a certain way, but the way he acts seals the deal.
Everybody knows at least 10 guys that the first time you looked at them, you didn't even notice them, but then they grew on you versus, the FIONE guy that has "Cad" written all over him.
Which is why I find this whole "you can only marry" someone who "looks" like you argument stupid. Sure you have to be "attracted" to your mate, but "attraction" has more than a physical component with women.
So if (MACHAMS) is your sole argument against dating out, its the lamest reason of all.
i support people dating whomever they wish, regardless of race. i also think that the combination of racism and the beauty myth makes dating and romance more complicated ground for black women. Just opening your mind to men of other races isn't necessarily going to resolve the challenges black women face regarding less potential partners and
society's rejection of black womanhood, particularly for black women with clearly black features and hair. Plus, dating, romance and marriage are complicated for all women in a patriarchy-even the ones with the most privilege-and these traditions need to be questioned, challenged and re-imagined anyway. It's like the underlying assumption is that if we open our minds to men of other races we'll have options, and that fulfilling our desire to get married and have children will leave us more fulfilled and satisfied with life. I've lived this from all sides and can say-it ain't necessarily so. I was raised in an interracial step-family with a white step-father and I have dated across the spectrum (white southerners, to working class brothers, to African elites) and waited a long time before I left my free agent single life and married (to a black man). Many of my peers growing up were of interracial families/step-families as well. It's complicated--there is no shangri-la for women within dating/marriage/long-term companionship, particularly for black women. I think while we each make our way, it could help if we collectively address underlying factors contributing to our conundrum -such as the longstanding defamation of black women and their exclusion from an increasingly narrow definition of beauty, and the ways in which we are used as fodder so that others can feel beautiful, desirable, at our expense/exclusion. (And yes, I know there's a need to address the underlying factors contributing to less available black men-but that's for a different forum). If we don't address the pan-cultural defamation and exclusion of black women from depictions and understandings of desirable womanhood (which needs to be deconstructed and reinvented as well..), I think this will only get worse for our daughters. and marrying outside of your race may not even be an option for most black women given the numbers (more women than men overall, across races) and how race, racism and beauty norms play into dating/romance.
@nathalie That was a very long message when you could have just said you see numerous obstacles and black women can't possibly overcome them. Since you are suppsedly a female and married - as it would happen to be it's to a black man and not experiencing dating difficulties why aren't you offering solutions instead of trying to beat down others with the "impossible" stick? I reject your premise and since you don't see success for black women your presence is presenting a road block and unnecessary. We can do "bad" all by ourselves.
All I can say is that this discussion is way overdue.
When I freed my mind to consider dating outside my race, I automatically increased my chances of getting a good man, not a good Black man.
And the color of his penis is and should be a NON-ISSUE. Anyone discussing the color of sex organs as opposed to whether or not the guy is a prince or an asshole, already have issues that need not be discussed on this blog or anywhere else.
One of my best friends is married to a white guy, and I am godmother to both their sons. She has been with him for 20 years, and I've seen them go through their ups and downs, but never, ever, did I see her husband walk off and leave her or their sons. He has always provided for her nice homes, good cars to drive and overall treats her like a queen.
In fact, they've been together so long, you cannot imagiine one without the other. They are truly soulmates and became "AS ONE".
Years ago, she suggested to me that I consider dating outside my race - I'm sorry I blew her off at the time, but after I came back from Europe and in recent years, while I'm surprised that men of other races find me attractive, I have to remind myself that DBR brothers almost indoctrinated my ass into thinking I only me their standards of beauty.
To which I now cry "bullshyt" because if there is such a "Standard", then it should be applied equally and when I point this out to brothas, they can't answer me.
All of which to say, I've broaden my horizons. And I'm not adverse to becoming a "Cougar", either, cause I find guys my age acting too damned decrepit and needing Viagra before they hit 50, which is the prime of life and they're already acting like they got one foot in the grave.
Good post, Faith, as always. Speak the TRUTH!
@Roslyn
"I’m like honey, all men of all races want you for sex. That’s a man thing, not a race thing."
Bingo. LOL.
@fdow: I didn't say I have not experienced dating difficulties--that's your assumption. I am saying that in terms of group solutions, we may need to work together to address obstacles such as the denigration of our image and beauty-a significant aspect of why many sisters may have less options within and outside our race (while an interracial partnership is an individual solution). i am also saying that interracial relationships and marriages may not be as simple of a solution as they may seem from the outside having been raised in and among them. As a society we need to re-examine the marriage/nuclear family "brass ring" thing--most marriages are ending in divorce, across races. I am not trying to beat others down-I am reflecting on what I am observing on this topic and thinking on how to contribute to that anti-defamation, healing and re-invention of marriage/family social constructions, and interested in hearing if/how others are working on it/thinking about it. My body of work is still in process.
@Nathalie
"Just opening your mind to men of other races isn’t necessarily going to resolve the challenges black women face regarding less potential partners and
society’s rejection of black womanhood, particularly for black women with clearly black features and hair. "
??? I don't think any ONE thing is going to resolve the challenges black women face regarding finding acceptable partners. But, an article about opening your mind to more possibilities can only be seen as a good thing. I'm a black woman that could definitely only be mistaken for a black woman (clearly black features and hair). I married a white man who gave and still gives me every indication that I'm beautiful.
As much as I loved him at the time I said yes, I almost didn't. Why? Because of the disdain of my father (white man got his foot on the black man's neck), some friends, fear, and anything else willing to clog up my thinking. I still have an aunt that supposedly, "can never forgive me?" after years of marriage and kids to boot.
But, I loved him and still do. It may seem silly, but having friends willing to support me meant a lot. I had dated black men before, but I had a "no sex" before marriage clause. I met many boyfriend's mothers, but after awhile their friends told them they had a right to expect sex in a relationship. My current husband, who just happened to be white, was the first to tell me how much he respected me for it and that he was willing to wait. And, he did, for almost two years until we married. That's my story, I don't know anyone else's.
It hasn't always been easy, but I wouldn't trade it.
I'm thankful for the sistas in my life that said, we're here regardless AND girl, whatever works we love you. So, I say, yeah...expand your options.
The champ said: "I’m bringing this up because, from what i’ve seen personally, a lack of physical attraction is what’s keeping black women from being receptive to the advances of men of other races."
@champ
It may seem like a trite point but, when you go the ebook sites the interracial romance novels involving BW/WM are ranked among the best sellers. I think there's lots of interest in dating out but very little follow through.
I also have to put to rest the notion that IR dating and marriage is more difficult for BW with stereotypical black features, hair, shapes, and skin-tones.
It's NOT. That's a lie promoted by DBRBM to keep dark-skinned BW as an unmarried, useable, sexual toilet population.
Beat their self-esteem to a pulp, most already know their not considered prizes in the "bc", THEN tell them in subtle and blatant ways WM and other non "brothas"(SMH) ALSO don't want your a**.
It is beyond cruel.
I'm hear to say non damaged men outside the "community" DO want BW.
Those BW who need to improve their self-image due to prior abuse in the "community" should do so because a man of ANY "race" including a WM can detect low self-esteem.
And it's low self-esteem and lack of self-worth that's puts ANY woman in a potential negative situation relationship wise.
My husbands prior girlfriend before meeting me was Ugandan. And she was BLUE black.
Bjorn told me once that he hates that others probably think the only reason why he fell in love with me is because I'm considered an "acceptable"/"crossover" type of BW. I'm light-skinned, hazel eyed and slim with a small behind.
Beauty is beauty PERIOD to non color-struck and non racist men in the global village. It's not color coded and hierarchical like it is in the "bc".
Non damaged men outside of the "bc" love us from the darkest to the lightest and everything in between. Short hair, long hair, "good hair" or "bad" (SMH at this slavery mentality) as long as it looks good on us and we're happy they're cool with it.
Which is refreshing and liberating to say the least.
@Felecia
Amen
@trish: Good point. I write interracial e-books and spend a lot of time talking to other black writers as well. They are huge sellers. I have no doubt that plenty of them are being read by black women who themselves are not in interracial relationships.
@Felicia: I don't know where this one comes from. My picture is all over the web and as you can see, I am very much a typical black woman with a very nappy hair. I'm 45 years old and started dating IR, almost exclusively with white men when I was 25. Met my husband when I was 32 and married at 35. I've dated probably a couple dozen white men.
@Jen: How many years have you been in an IR relationship discussing this with black women? I've been doing it for 20 years. I've been online for 13 years discussing IRs with black women. I don't have time for it anymore, but I used to spend a lot of time on hair boards and other places where black women congregated. Sure I got plenty of 'nothing but a black man' talk, but I've since gotten emails from a lot of those women saying they've changed their minds. Black women are in many cases walking wounded, their minds and self-esteem bruised and battered by the nonsense many of us encounter. They find it hard to believe, especially those with more Afrocentric features, that men of other races find them attractive. When they discover this, it's like opening Pandora's box. I've seen it too many times to believe otherwise.
All this 'pink penis' crap is nothing but bravado. Black women are big on bravado, in case you haven't noticed. We're also stupid enough to claim 'we don't need a man,' and 'I can raise a child by myself.' Yep, same bravado because they think that's the position they'll be in, so they might as well embrace it. If black women weren't interested in interracial relationships my books and the books of dozens of authors like me wouldn't be selling like hotcakes. So, I'm not the one living in denial, and I've got the bank balance and the emails to show for it.
This is not a new discussion. We've been talking about this issue since the days of a number of our sisters who made "the choice":
Pearl Bailey
Dorothy Dandridge
Eartha Kitt
Lena Horne
Diana Ross
Donna Summer
Alice Walker
Diahann Carroll
Whoppi Goldberg
During the late 1960s and 1970s, there were many interracial relationships between Black women and White men. A good number did not make it to marriage, however, but the "Tom and Helen Willis" coupling from "The Jeffersons" television series, was not unusual in my world.
Personally, I am really tired of hearing everybody and their mother say, "Most marriages end in divorce these days" and "Two-parent nuclear households don't work."
This is such DEFEATIST THINKING! We have to be very careful about what types of thoughts we allow into our minds. If you put garbage in by focusing on so many negative things, guess what you will get?! Garbage OUT!
My younger sister, at the ripe old age of 20, is always talking about divorce, divorce, divorce. I am looking at her like, "What are you talking about? Didn't we come from a LOVING, TWO-PARENT household? Aren't our parents still together and in love after 27 years?!"
Divorce does happen. But the thing to focus on is: A successful marriage is possible and they happen everyday!
No one said it is EASY, but many people these days are very foolish when it comes to entering into a marriage from the get go. If you enter into a life-long partnership with the wrong person, unprepared, and selfish - it will not work. Just like if you go to a job you hate with a bad attitude everyday! This is why people must really THINK and EVALUATE who they choose to marry.
Moreover, as we have seen, having a whole bunch of single-parent households has by and large NOT been working. Children need two parents and a parent needs a help-mate. Whether you are heterosexual or LGBT. Being a parent is not easy! You need someone to help share the load.
Again, let's stop with this defeatist thinking. Do not put garbage in, because you will get garbage out. Moreover, it's so tired ... and played out. I feel a yawn coming on ...
"In other words, it’s not something that is regularly discussed, but it is commonly enough discussed that I can’t imagine someone actually denying that a strong preference for Black men and a relative distaste for non-Black men exists among Black women."
I hear this at the hairdressers nowadays. I don't understand it because had Tom Selleck, Don Johnson, or Robert Redford made approaches to me ages ago, I would have been caught.
Something changed in the younger generation of Black women. In my day, it was all about light, bright or EVEN White. I remember being in love with all the members of the band, "Switch." We respected Dr. King, but Huey Newton, Malcolm and Muhammad Ali were considered "FINE."
Then later, it became about the darker brothers. Michael Jordan. Wesley Snipes. Even Denzel is not considered light.
Why did our standards for Black men change so much?
@fdow
"I find it interesting you think it’s the “natural order”. I find it to be based on your social circles, residential areas and outlook."
Hence, what I mean by "natural order." Our pairings don't happen spontaneously. Maybe it's just a case of semantics here, but we're saying the same thing.
"You are also not acknowledging the fact that AA women in all-black settings have been specifically told to only look for black males as partners, to give a brotha a chance, to uphold the race."
It's not my experience with the black women that I know. I'm not hearing that from them. Regardless, I wasn't "not acknowledging" anything. My intent with my comment was to present other reasons that the black women I know are giving me for not aggressively seeking non-black mates - not to dismiss the one you've given.
"Meanwhile the typical black males is not told this and is allowed to be a rolling stone and roam free."
Again, that's not my experience, nor the experience of many of the black men I know. All I can do is speak from my own personal experience. And I'm telling you what my experience is. I'm not dismissing yours. Just presenting mine. I'm just averse to making generalizations about groups of people like that.
But as I already stated in my first comment, I have zero qualms about IR dating of any kind. I have sisters who are with non-black men. Myself and my brothers are all with black women. So, I really am with you on this, and aren't here to nullify your intent.
Honestly, I cease to comprehend why interracial dating continues to be a hot topic amongst Black women. Along with hair and skin color, IR is one sure way to bring a lot of Black women out to share their points of view.
We have no allegiance - spoken or unspoken - to be with Black men, as if to do so will save them. Black men need to save themselves from themselves. Black women also need to see themselves as individuals, free of the rules and expectations the Black community places on us. I think that once Black women become truly comfortable in their own skin - figuratively and literally - this topic will cease to have the level of importance we place on it.
Thanks to all for this discussion, this has been a most interesting conversation, to say the least! :) I can't help but think of actresses Halle Berry, Alfe Woodward, Whoopi Goldberg, etc. Especially Halle Berry, now that she's had a baby. She was with a "brother" baseball player, I forget his name, but he was abusive; singer Eric Bonet repeatedly cheated on her. Then she met a 10 years younger White man who simply adores her. True, her mom's White and her father's Black, but when she had her baby, it made me stop and think. What's also interesting about Halle, I read an interview once where she said her mother taught her, "you're a Black girl with a White mother and a Black father." That was deep.
Someone earlier made an interesting point about White men finding brown-skinned or dark-skinned sisters attractive. A few years ago, a White male friend of mine had a crush on me, but never approached me; he told a Black couple, friends of mine he thought I was the absolute bomb! I was very surprised; I'm a tall, brown-skinned sister with a very short natural, wear African clothes 95 % of the time and I am a die-hard Pan-Africanist, community organizer and very out-spoken. Yeah, some of the local "down for the struggle" brothers have made it clear I was too brown for them; my hair too short and my dresses too long (no, I don't have a kente cloth mini skirt), too out-spoken, too well read, intelligent, traveled, kept a job therefore I'm not dependent on a man, etc. So, yeah, I'm older now and I realize FOR SOME INDIVIDUALS, regardless of race, racism and White supremacy has not totally wiped out the humanity of every single person in this society. So, yeah, I've learned my lesson, I no longer rule out a non-African man, but now a Jimmy Smits Latino brother would be alright with me right about now . . . :) :)
FWIW Jimmy Smits is half Latino. His mother is Puerto Rican (and most Puerto Rican's Like Dominican's have some degree of African Ancestry) and his father is a tall white Dutchman from Surinam. Smits is a common name in Holland.
It's especially hard if you are an attractive BW.
guys automatically assume a beautiful woman is taken so they don't even bother asking her out now add the fact that she is black and there you go.
Since our families, churches, social services industries, and education professionals are all dominated by Black women, what Black men are in place to discourage women from seeking love outside of the race?
Also, since Black men are accused of serially seeking out women of other races, are these same men additionally responsible from holding Black women back from interracial relationships.
I am trying to reconcile how Black men can mass abandon Black women, and then enforce restrictive racial dating choices upon them simultaneously.