Monday
May112009
A Final Word on Roland S. Martin's Baby Excommunication Black Male Accountability Project (BEBMAP)
Monday, May 11, 2009 at 8:30AM Gina, The Blogmother
Roland Martin returned to our discussion after we posted his response to our response to his plot to deny baby christenings to children whose fathers did not appear at the christening. So this is our response to his response to our response to his response.
And so this shall be the final chapter in our series about the Roland S. Martin Baby Excommunication Black Male Accountability Project.
Mr. Martin said that I did not offer a counter solution, I did. Since he clearly glossed over what I wrote the first and second time, this time I'm going to type my solution S-L-O-W-L-Y to make sure he can read for comprehension.
I clearly stated that instead of turning women and children away from a prayer ritual, that he suggest that churches start a PATERNITY MINISTRY! If this crisis warrants denying a child a christening, then surely it merits the pastor making a visit to the BABY DADDY to hold him accountable. Think of it as the Prison Ministry, just earlier. We visit the sick, we visit the incarcerated, why not visit these fathers? Why is this pastor not leaving his palace and going out and herding the flock? Maybe he's tele-pastoring.
This entire discussion got started by “Man up and be a real dad” ,the essay that Mr. Martin wrote was about BLACK MALE accountability. Notice the emphasis on Black MALE. The title that the CNN editors chose, “Man up and be a real dad” about MEN "manning up." I didn't pick the topic. I didn't pick the title. He did! They did.I was having a discussion based on the parameters Roland set. He chose to write an essay about Black Male Accountability, not Black woman accountability or Black baby accountability.
So explain to me why an article that is supposed to be about Black MALE accountability concludes with a "solution" to solve a crisis of MALE accountability by casting out infants and women from a prayer service? Women and children are. not. men.
All this obfuscation and redirection about the HORRIBLE choices women make in choosing their partners doesn't have one thing to do with BLACK MALE accountability.I could write all day about the failings of women, but that wasn't what CNN and Mr. Martin said they were talking about. They said they were talking about Black. Male. Accountability.
Mr. Martin missed a wonderful opportunity to propose church-based solutions where men hold each other accountable. After writing several hundred words where he maligns the child rearing abilities of mommas, grandmammas, and aunties, he then turns around and demands that these "incompetent" women be held responsible for the accountability of fully grown men. He can't have it both ways. Either we're inept or we're all powerful. Pick one or the other. IF we're all-knowing and all powerful, then we should be in charge!
At the end of the day about the only thing we can gather from that contradictory woman-bashing (yes, I say woman-bashing for his dismissive references to the women who are caring for these children. )essay is a teachable moment. Our lesson today is about "Accountability."
Our Teachable Moment
Imagine I am taking a stick and drawing a line in the dirt. On one side of the line are people who believe that turning babies away from the church is a motivating tool to increase paternal involvement. On the other side of the line are people who have actually read the New Testament and know that there is not a single instance in the Bible where Jesus turns away a parent seeking prayer for their child.
The people on the side of the line who believe in casting out babies can dream about doing so. They can talk about doing so. They can write essays on CNN.com about doing so. They can come to blogs deriding those who criticize their suggestion to do so, HOWEVER, if the time should ever come where some foolhardy preacher should abandon all biblical teachings to the contrary, and implement Mr. Martin's Baby Excommunication Black Male Accountability Plan, then you must be prepared to hold these un-Christ-like pastors ACCOUNTABLE!
No, don't ask these Pastors' Baby Mama's to hold them accountable, do it yourself. By accountable I'm thinking street theater, some massive puppets, tambourines, and bull horns greeting the congregation asking them to provide a SINGLE. BIBLICAL. REFERENCE for their actions.
Mr. Martin is absolutely right in one narrow regard. There comes a time when you have to stop discussing an issue. As far as I'm concerned you can continue to talk about the BEBMAP all you want to, but the moment some fool actually initiates it at Mr. Martin's direction, then you must put your "money where your mouth is" (to borrow Mr. Martin's cliched use of the cliche) and ACT!
THE. END.
Previous Posts:
Roland Martin: Deny Illegitimate Children Christenings (EPIC FAIL! -That Ain’t Biblical)
“Roland Martin” Responds to Our Criticism of His Plan to Deny Christenings to Illegitimate Children
And so this shall be the final chapter in our series about the Roland S. Martin Baby Excommunication Black Male Accountability Project.
I’ve called on pastors nationwide to stop the stream of momma, grandmother, aunts and female cousins coming to the altar for baby dedications with no man in sight. That pastor should say, “Until I personally meet with the father, I will not dedicate this child.” Somebody has to hold that man accountable for his actions. Roland S. Martin on his BEBMAP
Mr. Martin said that I did not offer a counter solution, I did. Since he clearly glossed over what I wrote the first and second time, this time I'm going to type my solution S-L-O-W-L-Y to make sure he can read for comprehension.
I clearly stated that instead of turning women and children away from a prayer ritual, that he suggest that churches start a PATERNITY MINISTRY! If this crisis warrants denying a child a christening, then surely it merits the pastor making a visit to the BABY DADDY to hold him accountable. Think of it as the Prison Ministry, just earlier. We visit the sick, we visit the incarcerated, why not visit these fathers? Why is this pastor not leaving his palace and going out and herding the flock? Maybe he's tele-pastoring.
This entire discussion got started by “Man up and be a real dad” ,the essay that Mr. Martin wrote was about BLACK MALE accountability. Notice the emphasis on Black MALE. The title that the CNN editors chose, “Man up and be a real dad” about MEN "manning up." I didn't pick the topic. I didn't pick the title. He did! They did.I was having a discussion based on the parameters Roland set. He chose to write an essay about Black Male Accountability, not Black woman accountability or Black baby accountability.
So explain to me why an article that is supposed to be about Black MALE accountability concludes with a "solution" to solve a crisis of MALE accountability by casting out infants and women from a prayer service? Women and children are. not. men.
All this obfuscation and redirection about the HORRIBLE choices women make in choosing their partners doesn't have one thing to do with BLACK MALE accountability.I could write all day about the failings of women, but that wasn't what CNN and Mr. Martin said they were talking about. They said they were talking about Black. Male. Accountability.
Mr. Martin missed a wonderful opportunity to propose church-based solutions where men hold each other accountable. After writing several hundred words where he maligns the child rearing abilities of mommas, grandmammas, and aunties, he then turns around and demands that these "incompetent" women be held responsible for the accountability of fully grown men. He can't have it both ways. Either we're inept or we're all powerful. Pick one or the other. IF we're all-knowing and all powerful, then we should be in charge!
At the end of the day about the only thing we can gather from that contradictory woman-bashing (yes, I say woman-bashing for his dismissive references to the women who are caring for these children. )essay is a teachable moment. Our lesson today is about "Accountability."
Our Teachable Moment
Imagine I am taking a stick and drawing a line in the dirt. On one side of the line are people who believe that turning babies away from the church is a motivating tool to increase paternal involvement. On the other side of the line are people who have actually read the New Testament and know that there is not a single instance in the Bible where Jesus turns away a parent seeking prayer for their child.
The people on the side of the line who believe in casting out babies can dream about doing so. They can talk about doing so. They can write essays on CNN.com about doing so. They can come to blogs deriding those who criticize their suggestion to do so, HOWEVER, if the time should ever come where some foolhardy preacher should abandon all biblical teachings to the contrary, and implement Mr. Martin's Baby Excommunication Black Male Accountability Plan, then you must be prepared to hold these un-Christ-like pastors ACCOUNTABLE!
No, don't ask these Pastors' Baby Mama's to hold them accountable, do it yourself. By accountable I'm thinking street theater, some massive puppets, tambourines, and bull horns greeting the congregation asking them to provide a SINGLE. BIBLICAL. REFERENCE for their actions.
Mr. Martin is absolutely right in one narrow regard. There comes a time when you have to stop discussing an issue. As far as I'm concerned you can continue to talk about the BEBMAP all you want to, but the moment some fool actually initiates it at Mr. Martin's direction, then you must put your "money where your mouth is" (to borrow Mr. Martin's cliched use of the cliche) and ACT!
THE. END.
Previous Posts:
Roland Martin: Deny Illegitimate Children Christenings (EPIC FAIL! -That Ain’t Biblical)
“Roland Martin” Responds to Our Criticism of His Plan to Deny Christenings to Illegitimate Children
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Reader Comments (38)
Thank you for writing this. I am so sick of blame the momma for all the worlds ills. It isn't just our fault. Just because you can spread your seed around the world like Johnny appleseed, doesn't mean you should. Are men hapless uncontrollable beasts with the urge to copulate with as many women as possible using no protection? And if this is the case, shouldn't they be working on that? Considering women use birth control, shouldn't men be put on the pill if this is their true nature?
Thank you for addressing the issue, and anyone who thinks that Roland Martin is the arbiter of all things acountable, then they get what they deserve.
In re-reading the exchange on this subject, I've concluded that Roland Martin's editorial was an exercise in self-promotion. He was compelled to mention not once, but twice (both in his CNN article and in his response to this forum) that he and his wife obtained custody of his nieces and nephews from a troubled married couple. Unlike Roland Martin, I've observed that the participants in this forum did not feel the need to tout their familial interventions with, or contributions to, their extended relatives, even when goaded to do so. Good for Roland Martin for removing his young relatives from a toxic environment, but he didn't have to marginalize or diminish the efforts of countless grandmothers, aunts, and female cousins who do the same thing. These women can't dictate to derelict men to be good fathers any more than Roland Martin can dictate to his brother-in-law to be one.
Family members in these situations can either turn their backs or they can intervene. For the religiously inclined, that intervention might include bringing the child before the church for a "blessing." And yet there seems to be a subtle suggestion that a woman who does this is enabling unaccountability, while a man who does the same thing is some sort of hero.
As for the rest of Roland Martin's article he made it clear "who" should be held accountable, but he fell down on the "how" when he suggested turning away babies appearing without a father. He really needs to rethink the harsh and Puritanical idea of denying babies "blessings" pending the appearance of a father who may never be compelled to show. That's not a holding the father accountable, that's punishing the baby (not to mention those misguided women presenting them). I like the blog owner's solution of a paternity ministry, for those folk needing to avail themselves of religion.
Of course, if this is simply all about the appearance of a biological male (as opposed to the biological father), we have misogyny and double standards masquerading as a call for accountability.
What? What the ...? Why is this the first time I've heard of this? Why does this sound so clearly INSANE? Why is advocating the punishment of women and their kids under the guise of holding illegitimate/deadbeat fathers accountable? How is this punishing a dude who won't show up in the first place? He doesn't care if the baby loves Jesus. GRANDMA CARES! What did GRANDMA do WRONG!!! And WHY would the church turn away people who WANT to Christen their kids? Isn't the whole point of Christianity is to spread the damn thing and make MORE Christians? What damn sense does ... OMG ... my head is EXPLODING ... Can't ... type ... Gkdnospagnkldadkgfa[pflkmadKO!@))!NlKNFOD!!!!!
I think you're on to something Miki. Once again, we have people wanting kudos for doing what they're supposed to do. My mama did the same thing for generations. Black women have always been the ones who stepped in to 'take a child.' Usually informally, and without state intervention. Back in the day, there were no social services for black people, so we had these black women who simply took care of things. Working in social services myself, I repeatedly came across instances of children who were reared by their auntie, their 'sister-mama' or 'playcousin.' It is simply the way things were done. Now Mr. Martin wants a cookie.
According to my mama, she did it because that's what Christians are supposed to do. (I wouldn't know, I'm so NOT a Christian.) Bottom line is, it's about damned time that black men stepped up and started cleaning up this mess, considering that they're the ones who feel compelled to broadcast their seed like Miracle Gro.
Typical black sexism and misogyny to turn 'black male accountability' into a damned baby excommunication and black female slut shaming. Epic fail indeed, but then I don't expect anything else coming out of the nonexistent black community.
I resent Martin's comments altogether. We are not solely responsible for raising children. If someone reaches the point that they feel like a christianing/blessing/dedication is needed then allow it. That little step taken early in a child's life only has the significance given to it by religious people. No child should be held accountable for the actions of their parents.
Just because Mr. Martin feels like tooting his own horn, doesn't mean anything to me. Again, he's only presenting the sides he wants us to see and applaud.
As far as I'm concerned there are many things wrong with the Black church as a whole, this stupidness doesn't come close to the many areas that they are failing and/or misleading others in.
Miki,
I thought I would have been labeled as cruel or insensitive to question the authentiity of Mr. Martin's act of "black parental gallantry". It's obvious that he wanted someone to commend him for what he and his wife are doing, otherwise why mention it at all? I was even going to mention how low class it was to label his own relatives as jokes... family bidness ought to remain just that... in the family. I have not idea what is motives are so I'll end my comments about him right there.
Gina,
BEBMAP? That's almost as good as the "rent your wombs" or immoral indifference monikers. I actually went on a google search for it. *LOL*
I guess I'm in the minority here because I kinda agree with Roland. If these sista's can have babies then they should put pressure on these men to step up and go to these baby dedications. I guarantee most sista's don't even bother to ask. Low expectations means inferiour behavoir.
I go to a mega church in MD. The church is 80% women. Most of the men are over 50. Most of women are single. Sunday after Sunday these women bring themselves and their kids to church but no man in sight. The preacher rarely calls out these women. Where is your man? Why are you here with the kids by yourself? What message does it send when a preacher doesn't state the obvious? Telling folks to not have sex is not enough. Sometimes you need to put folks on blast.
Besides, too many black women don't even ask their men to do the right thing. They just accept it. Maybe if the church pushed back a little, things would change. But I doubt it.
It's one thing for the church to yell morality but they should also push back when necessary. My aunt's preacher didn't marry her off the second time. He said he only marries people once. Now, never mind that her first husband was gay and left her. The fact of the matter is there should be some consequences for your ations, even in church.
Monica, unless you are the police or a judge, you cannot force an adult to do something they do not want to do! What do you want these women to do? Drag the men kicking and screaming into church? Threaten them? I want to know, in detail, how you believe single mothers should force their childrens' father into church? How is making a man show up to church on their children's christianing day going to gurantee that they become involved in their lives everyday? I highly doubt most men who are not involved with their children care what some church people have to say about them so I highly doubt some shaming technique is gonna work. Cause if these men really cared about what people think, then they would already be involved with their children!
This could all be avoided if both men and women stopped having unprotected sex with questionable people in the first place. Please know who you are sleeping with. That way, when he starts acting the fool, then you won't be surprised.
The irrational behavior of a deadbeat dad, or a no-good man usually is displayed long before the woman sleeps with a man. We either choose to ignore it, or think we can change the man. Not going off on anyone, though, cuz Lord knows I have made some DUMB decisions.
As for Roland, what he is doing is punishing the child. It is the child who suffers because of clueless parents. If the mother wants her child christenened, then christen the child! The child is not the problem, it is the parents!
Sasha, even the police and judge can't make people do right by their children. I was a social worker, with the power to take people's children away PERMANENTLY and oftentimes I couldn't get them to act right. This notion that women have the power to make a man do the right thing is absurd. Men do what it is that they want to do, and holding a baby liable for their parent's trifling behavior is even more absurd. It's a travesty, but again, typical of the so-called black community.
Once you've made a mistake and chosen a low grade or zero sperminator you may only have other women to rely on to help you. So...if it happens once then please learn from it. Of course part of the reason why some women choose poorly are a: focusing on any man who's black regardless of character b: the woman was fatherless as well. How are fatherless children supposed to "know" how to act right? Perhaps Martin can step in - after he learns how to stop being sexist. I wonder how well these kids are going to turn out. I actually wonder how much of the raising he's actually doing?!
Afterwards it really is on the woman for choosing poorly married or not - but they're usually NOT married. Which is why the HIV/AIDS rate and out of wedlock birth rate is disproportionately higher for Black women. Plus we see how certain other self-righteous people who like to think of themselves as "in the know" will have such utter contempt for them AND their offspring.
As racist as eugenics was deployed I'm starting to wonder if there was some good being done in a roundabout way....I know I know that sounds crazy but reading about this horrid situations week in and week out I'm starting to wonder.
AMEN to this final rebuttal!!! That was exactly what I was saying the othe day in response to Martin's response! We do not have control over grown men. Why are we lambasting women who are raising their children? I don't understand. We have to teach our young AND older men to be RESPONSIBLE. Plain & simple. Be responsible for your actions. A woman, nine times out of ten, will step up to the plate...no matter her age. Why can't our men do the same? We must teach our daughters to respect and love themselves, but we must also be that example. There are so many professional adult women who do not respect themselves. We must live the lives that we want our daughters to live. We stress a collge education but we need to educate our daughters on what to look for in a boyfriend, a husband. Share the wisdom of our mistakes...and I don't know many adult women who have not made mistakes in love. We cannot keep throwing stones at each other. And as for women coming to church without their men, I know many married women who come to church without their husbands. Sure they want their husbands to come but should they not receive the Word, and rear their children in the church because their man won't come? I just don't think that God would approve of this. Anyone who seeks the Word of God should not be turned away. Like I said in an earlier post, if you have a loving family unit & raise your child in the way he/she should go then you have done an amzing job. And life is not always fair so you may not have a traditonal family unit, but love is love. Commitment to excellence is a commitment to excellence. Pres Obama is a prime example of what a strong mother and strong grandparents can do. So again I salute all the mommas, grandmamas, aunties who step up to the plate. Mr Martin if you are reading, stop debating your sisters. Stop it. And if my church ever implements something so unChristianlike I will make my voice heard.
I'll just say that I'm not buying what most have you have been indoctrinated to believe. Sorry ladies, but most of these women don't even ASK their men to step up. Black women are so afraid of losing these men that they no longer ask black men to take responsibility and just bare the burden themselves. There is nothing wrong with being firm and putting your foot down with a man about his child. These women allow these men to ignore their responsibilities BUT THEY STILL CONTINUE TO SLEEP WITH THEM! Jesus black women sometimes you do have to let a man know FIRMLY that his not showing up for HIS baby's christianing is unnaceptable and that you won't tolerate it. Instead sistas don't even bother asking. And if he says no, once - sistas are too docile to explain the importance of SHOWING UP. Sorry ladies, black women need to stand up for themselves and most don't until he's gone!
If Roland S. Martin's wife is an ordained minister, then he knows full well that most unwed mothers DO ASK the fathers of their children to attend. The very foundation of his ludicrous argument is a damnable lie.
I am a preacher's daughter, grand-daughter, and great-granddaughter. My godfather is a bishop -- so I KNOW church folk -- and frankly 'sisters' have been trying to get 'brothers' to church since FOREVER.
So this business about adding another task for a young mother who is still in the throes of post partem pain, sleeplessness and financial distress to now become some fool's conscience -- just so that she can attempt to get God's blessing on her child -- is just another example of the rampant MISDIRECTION OF RESPONSIBLITY on black women and girls that is in the minds of many black folk in this country.
Anyone who wants to dedicate their child is welcome at Abundant Life Fellowship in Edgewater Park, NJ... whether his father (or mother) is a prince or a fool.
"Come to me, ye who are heavy laden, and I will give you rest". Mr Martin, you need to bone up on your Bible... maybe your wife can give you a few rudimentary lessons.
Hummm-mm, since Bro. Roland's wife is a licensed, ordained minister, in a usually male-dominiated profession, I don't understand how he could say this about christening children. But then again, I wonder what denomination do he and his minister wife belong to, are they neo-pentecostal, conservative type Christians or what? :(
And of course this says nothing to all the 'church' men that are around but still do nothing once they leave the protection of the church walls! It really urks me that at the one place one should be able to find peace, comfort, happiness, forgiveness, humility, love. patience, etc...one can not.
No surprise. Some of the most hypocritical, evil, hateful people make it a 2-3 times a week habit of going to church. Ironic that they pray and worship a 'God' that tried to befriend all.
I don't know what the solution is for making deadbeat men step up, but I do know one of the solutions for helping single mothers raise children is to have good support systems in place and the church is a good place to start. Instead of placing burdens on these woman, we she make our best efforts to bring them closer to the church, not further (if they so desire). Maybe then their child can get the extended support system they deserve.
@monica once again, youa re missing the point of the post. HIS essay was about MALE ACCOUNTABILITY!!!!!!
MALE ACCOUNTABILITY! In otherwords men holding THEMSELVES accountable.
I LAUGH at you talking about indoctrination. THe truth is that the readers of this blog for all practical purposes are heretics. People who don't fall back into the automatic position of attempting to identify what Black women did wrong.
Women are 100% responsible for the choices and decisions they make when choosing a partner, but this essay wasn't supposed to be about that. It was supposed to be about men "manning up."
Black women are not the MULES of the Black community, we are already responsible for child rearing, now we have to be responsible for adult male rearing too? Whateva
NOt to mention his derision of the women who stepped up to the plate. You really think Grandma and auntie want to raise three sets of children?
Roland Martin Vs. Black Women & The Echo Chamber
Roland Martin never stood a chance....nor does any Black person with an idea... or an opinion that doesn't fit a certain narrative.
I'm not defending Roland Martin... I thought he also missed the point (that the problem in Black culture today goes way beyond an event in a Black Church). Blacks are worried about the flowers in the lawn while the House is burning down in the background.
Black women are so busy chasing the anti-Black male angle on everything...that they miss the larger point. I am noticing this all the time.
Black women have such tunnel vision that they missed all of those points...including what Roland Martin was trying to do in the larger sense. That tunnel vision keeps their brains locked in this anti-Black male mode.... so that no matter what the subject is... they will find a way to attach this narrow anti-Black Male dogma to it somehow....
There are perhaps one or two Black women here who aren't locked into that narrow mindset....but the majority are. While I agree that Black men aren't worth a damn in many cases.... (and i'm a Black man) I don't try to attach this sentiment to every problem as the main cause.
Both Martin and WAOD missed the point I think.
This really isn't about a damn Christening, a Black Church, or any of that. You could have all the Christenings in the World, with both parents or just one, and I honestly don't believe that it would do much of anything. For one, this solution applies only to those Blacks who attend Church and are part of Black Church culture in the first place. What about all those who don't attend Church regularly and don't have a Pastor?
I personally don't identify with the "Black Church". If I were to choose a Church, I would make sure that it's a mixed one (with a more even mix of races...and mix of cultural and economic backgrounds) and that its focus is on actually doing work in the community helping folks.... not a place for modeling hats and creating mega facilities and bling for the preachers. Black Churches are primarily social clubs and businesses. After slavery, Jim Crow and the Civil Rights era.... the Black Church lost its mission (and its collective mind) in some respects.
Tell me.... how is it that Blacks have such a solid Church culture, yet Black culture and Black value systems as a whole continue to deteriorate? That's a red flag that the Black Church has failed in its relationship with and stewardship of the so-called "Black Community". So why then should the "Black Church" be trusted with providing a solution (and in this case...a narrow one)?
And perhaps I should refer to the Black Church as Black Church Inc. because as a whole Black Churches function more like businesses than Houses of genuine worship. The commodification of religion has been terrible for the "Black Community".
#1). It's about a Culture that has lost its way in terms of its overall value system. Once the value system breaks down...everything else crumbles. And #2). It's also about choices. and #1 is connected to #2...as a problem with one leads to a problem with the other.
How did the "Black Community" get to this point? Blacks just aren't raising their children as well as they should (as a whole). Yes, there are individual families doing great. But as a whole.... Black parents are failing.
Add to that all of the outside forces... (Modern Black Culture, Black Hollywood, Rap/Hip Hop Culture, etc) bombarding Blacks with negative messages and images...and it makes Black parental failures that much worse.
Blacks need to change the message that they give to their children.... need to affirm a different/better set of values....and they need to teach their children about making good choices...and the consequences that will come if they don't.
Blacks could start by reaffirming the importance of education, rejecting rap culture and by not allowing poison into their homes (ie. BET, etc). That would be a good one, two, and three beginning for Blacks. But I won't hold my breath waiting for that cultural campaign to get started....because it's never going to start.
@AI I realize that you are on your "Black women ain't *$#@&^" Kick and whatnot, but even for you, this is a bit much.
I didn't chose to make the debate about christenings. That's what makes Roland Martin's "suggestion" idiotic. Denying Christenings isn't going to do a dad gum thing other than embarrass a woman. If Roland was serious about something other than writing a provocative article for CNN, he would have leaped at my suggestion about the paternity ministry.
THis is about an article that PROMISED to be about MALE accountability and turned into the same sexist drivel we've a;ready run into the ground.
Don"t worry Black women will get their full measure of blame and more?
I just want to point out a few things.
1. I agree, brothers need to step up.
2. I think Martin's idea was idiotic to begin with.
3. as a non church goer, I have to say this: There is nothing on this green earth that will convince me to enter a church for service (yes, even my oldest son's christening..and I AM In his life....)! I am no gangsta, dead beat dad, or bum. But if you can't convince me to go (and i am a pretty decent guy), how can we expect those dead beats to go? I had to sit down and really think about it. If they don't respect their own children or the mother of their children, why would they listen to a preacher if he came knocking on their door?
@ Angry Independent, Bro. Roland is usually fair in his ideas, but on this, children, church and men's responsibility, etc., he just didn't get it right; whether he intended it or not, it came out extremely sexist.
Yes, I read this and other blogs; I'm also a professionally trained Domestic Violence Advocate, active in my church AND a few more organizations. We as a community talk alot about the racist "de white man, de white man", etc., but we must also acknowledge the fact that not only racism, but also classism and SEXISM/PATRIARCHY also affect how we think, treat each, view the world around us, etc.
Yes, at baptisms/christenings, naming ceremonies, etc., unfortunately, sometimes most of the family and close family friends gathered are women; most of the time the fathers are indeed asked or told of such blessed events. Some choose not to go and yes, some of them are church going brothers, but for whatever reason, choose not to go.
Sadly, some of the men that don't go (to the baptisms/christenings) are violent, abusive, are "papered" with a stay-away order, long criminal histories, addicts, etc. I agree, men AND women should make better choices about our relationships, but even when an unhealthy choice is made, fathers AND mothers must still make the best decisions possible for the sake and love of the child(ren).
Now, I just wish Bro. Roland would have the COURAGE to reach out to the many men's groups in the city where he lives that helps men with such issues. In Atlanta it's Men Stopping Violence, in Wash. DC, it's Men Can Stop Rape, etc. We have many courageous men's organizations that do great work, but you know what Angry Independent? Men's groups like the ones I just mentioned, to some "brothers" they are not "real men." They don't get invited to Men's Day, the Men's Prayer Breakfast, the Boy Scout meetings, the fraternity parties and workshops, the youth mentoring programs, etc. We can't even get other men to acknowledge that there are indeed "real men" who do this work. I suggest you go to your Yellow Pages, look for such an organization in your city and invite them to the next gathering with you and your buddies. Now if you excuse me, I live in Wash. DC and I have to finish reading about a 19 year old pregnant sister murdered by her high school sweetheart boyfriend. :( :(
Agan, I'm in the minority opinion. I agree Roland's solution is weak but I get his point. The black church is just hypocritcal. It preaches abstinence and rails against premarital sex and bastard children. Yet, it these people who make up most church goers.
No, pastors need to push back and say if you've been a member of my church and you have babies out of marriage - you must present a father OR father figure at your baby's christianing. I would suggest that the preacher's also reach out to these fathers who aren't stepping up. Give them a call and talk to them about attending and responsibilities.
Besides, we all know behind black male accountability is a woman. It ain't gonna change anytime soon - ladies. And yes, it's unfair and IS a DISGRACE. But life is already unfair, so get over it. You can rail against it all you want but in order to get most black men to do the right thing, you need to demand it. Do you know how many black women REFUSE child support. "I can take care of my child myself." These fools don't even bother to ask. Jesus - people, you've got too many black women who don't even demand respect for themselves or for their children. Sorry, but the church needs to step up and do something not just preach about it.
Monica said "Besides, we all know behind black male accountability is a woman. It ain’t gonna change anytime soon - ladies. And yes, it’s unfair and IS a DISGRACE. But life is already unfair, so get over it. You can rail against it all you want but in order to get most black men to do the right thing, you need to demand it."
Thank goodness our forebearers didn't thnk th samething about voting rights, desegregating public accomodations, anti biotics, flight, internal combustion engine, skurvy, polio, electricity and any other advance that require someone to push past THE WAY THINGS ARE.
We still talking about this. Any ways, my husband and I have started the Alliance Against Punk Azz Parents in our home. You can read more about our organization by going to the following link:
http://charactercorner.blogspot.com/2009/05/alliance-against-punk-azz-parents.html
"Besides, we all know behind black male accountability is a woman."
Say what? If black men need women to make them act like men, somebody needs to tie rocks around their necks and throw them in the river NOW. A man who needs a woman to make him do the right thing is spectacularly worthless and really not fit for anything but fish food. What a load of crock. Of course, I know that many black women feel this way. As far as they're concerned black men are incompetent losers who are barely able to wipe their own hindquarters. This is the main reason there is such animus between the two groups. Black women think black men are inadequate and black men are on a race to the bottom to prove us right.
And we wonder why there's no such thing as a black community.
Since there are scores of babies being born in the black community that are unwanted ....I say unwanted because I would imagine if the black fathers did indeed want the children they fathered they would participate in their lives...I wonder if black male pundits and leaders will endorse the male contraceptives that are on the horizon.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3543478/
I believe we are in for a radical drop in black birth rates.
As for the black church I believe many black people, like most of my family use "church" as entertainment ...very much like European tourists that visit and are excited to see a black gospel choir.
None of my relatives seem to be using the bible or christian teachings to guide their lives...yet they attend weekly.
The importance of the Catholic church is waning. They are struggling to find young men to join the priesthood and membership and attendance are dwindling.
In countries where religions are vital and growing, religion is a part of every aspect of life...including goverment....i.e. Isreal or Pakistan, etc.
Also Islam and Judiasm have more rituals and ceremonies one has to participate in so you are constantly involved. Religion permeates your daily life.
People I know who call themselves Christians seem to never interact at all with religion except for Sunday from 11-1pm and we can see in the black community those religions do not inform our lives.
Ask an 8 year old Muslim boy why he goes to the Mosque and wait for the answer.
Besides, we all know behind black male accountability is a woman.
Are you serious? Of course men and women got a ying/yang thing going on, but to completely hold a woman accountable for a grown mans actions is insane. Some men do certain things in response to a woman like wear nice clothes and put on cologne. But to take care of his responsibilities is not something a woman can come in and make him do. He has to want to do it or the government can just take his money, but they still cannot make one perform their parental duties.
Accountability ies with each and every one of us. We, as AA women need to stop involving ourselves with men that refuse to be men. That means stop having unprotected sex. One baby is a mistake or poor judgment, more than one is a habit.
We cannot make these types of men grow up and be responsible, therefore, we need to stop involving ourselves with such men. PERIOD.
We can only break the chain by raising our children to be responsible that we currently have and begin to seek out quality men (and that can mean not limiting oneself to only black men). The focus should be on the quality of the person and their character. That also means we need to work on ourselves to have the self-respect and the desire to accept nothing less.
Mr. Martin is irrelevant in my opinion, only we can change the future by changing our behaviors today. He should focus on black male accountability, that is his task, not ours.
That grown black man was once a black boy, once a black baby - perhaps the same one who was "dedicated" without a father present or a mother who felt she should be married to his father. It's true that there's not much we can do with grown black men - but what are we doing with black male babies and black boys?
I just don't understand it. If there ever was an institution that teaches women to take more and more, it's the Black church. No where else is it instilled in young women the 'appropriate', yet sexist and archaic mentality to do for your 'man' first. I know a few 'christians' that are living to the best of their ability and following the doctrine of their religion. Most people that I know that belong to a church or practice religion are 'devils' Mon-Sat and only "Christ-like" during the hours they actually attend church.
I don't care how many backwards people get on here and say that women are solely at fault, we are not. There is plenty of blame to go around. Much has been said about the cases where a male parent is a loser to begin with; but there are plenty of cases where either parent becomes selfish, a loser , an addict, an abuser or just worthless and the child IS better off without the drama and instability that that parent brings. We don't know how to make things better, but in no way does it make sense to prevent a child from receiving their spiritual blessing...that is if you believe in church, prayer, God,etc to begin with.
Martin is right. Dads need to man up and be real fathers. However, it's not the mother's responsibility to make them do it.
@Mocha Dad, you done said a mouthful right there.
Bump Roland Martin and his incredibly STUPID, FOOLISH, RIDICULOUS idea. Let's talk about pimp struttin', Stacey Adams-wearing, (personal) jet-settin', tailored-suit-wearing', Bentley-drivin'-with-your-tithes pastors who insist you hand over ALL your little money on Sunday morning while they watch our communities foreclose out of existence, or be terrorized by baby drug lords, or suffer from inadequate educational systems that send our babies out into the world dumb and underserved.
And maybe Roland can show me the scripture in the Bible that lists caveats for BLESSING A BABY AND GIVING HER BACK TO THE LORD? Really? We're going to stop praying for the babies who need God the most?
Uh huh. Okay then.
Thank you SO much for speaking up and out about this foolishness. I'll also be happy when we start giving the fathers who ARE good daddies some doggone credit already. There are plenty of them out there, but you'd never know it.
"Besides, we all know behind black male accountability is a woman. It ain’t gonna change anytime soon - ladies. And yes, it’s unfair and IS a DISGRACE"
Isn't this "unfairness" what we CHOSE?
I witnessed the change from "find husband, get married, have children" to "find a MAN (not necessarily a husband...), have sex, maybe have children depending on..."
Many of us are soooooo dishonest in this conversation. What about those of us who don't want to bring the father to church because we're not sure who the daddy is? Like this doesn't happen.
We are the pro-choice generation. We have more options available to us to procreate (or not...) than any generation of women in human history. Yet, instead of taking ownership of our procreation choices, we look everywhere but in the mirror when it goes wrong.
We are matriarchal in our sexual power, and patriarchal in our sexual accountability....
The "I'll think I'll have a baby by him" baby mama culture view should have been rejected a long time ago, but who cares about us and our daughters enough to lead?
"Thank you SO much for speaking up and out about this foolishness. I’ll also be happy when we start giving the fathers who ARE good daddies some doggone credit already. There are plenty of them out there, but you’d never know it."
See, I'm of the opinion that I see more Black men emotionally dedicated to their children as fathers (when they are around) than what I saw decades ago.
As for our young women, I must say that mothers today are not as prepared as mothers were years ago. Which is why many of my girlfriends are raising their grandchildren and great-grandchildren. The silence about this is deafening.
I think that many women don't care. It's easy for them now a days. Where's the outrage, shame and attitude when our young girls become pregnant to begin with? Scarce to find. Too many 'love ' the chance to 'raise' more little ones; (for to many reasons to write here), and thrive off it as long as you call them Nana or any other term for grandmother except grandmother.
Sadly we just don't care....