Monday
Feb162009
On the Agenda: Blog Comments
Monday, February 16, 2009 at 7:35AM The Blogmother
Unlike some folks who like to send me emails with tips about how to make ME more palatable to THEM, I like to read posts that challenge my way of thinking. By challenged, I don't mean insulted, derided, marginalized. I mean people who make you question your long held beliefs and actions. Sometimes I walk away feeling exactly the same, but with a more tailored argument. Other times, I adjust my thinking. Depends.
Muslim Bushido is one of those blogs that always challenges me , which is why I have to read it on the weekend when I have time to let the posts marinate. I'm a lurker, but I had to pass on this post Kadijah wrote about a phenomenon I've noticed in my own comments section. The post is called "An Open Letter To Those Who Support Black Women Empowerment Blogs".
I had actually attributed some of what I had observed to mental illness, childhood trauma, or detractors of this blog trying to start a flame war in the comments section. I had not considered some of the other possible motivations listed. Thus the benefit of reading blogs with a different view point.
Just a reminder to be concisous that as you embark on your own journey of "empowerment" ( whatever that looks like to you), other people might try to use you to carry out their own agendas. You must always be mindful of that and never assume that the enemy of your enemy is your friend. Nor assume that everyone who is friendly is your ally. But by no means should you be silent because someone might come along with their own agenda.
Muslim Bushido is one of those blogs that always challenges me , which is why I have to read it on the weekend when I have time to let the posts marinate. I'm a lurker, but I had to pass on this post Kadijah wrote about a phenomenon I've noticed in my own comments section. The post is called "An Open Letter To Those Who Support Black Women Empowerment Blogs".
Over time, I've noticed several recurring, disturbing patterns during conversations at many BW's empowerment blogs.
Some commenters are so (justifiably) disgusted with the many crimes and failures of BM that they are eager to support ANY statement that tongue-lashes BM. No matter what the source or motivation for these statements. This gradually leads to supporting the words and actions of racists. This leads to becoming mirror images of the Negro male celebrities who were so focused on their hatred of Black women that they were eager to validate comments made by a racist like Don Imus.
Some commenters are (justifiably) angry with mass AA culture due to their experiences of being victimized by the Acting Black crew. As a result, they have knee-jerk opposition to the very idea of any sort of AA self-respect, AA pride, or AA unity. This gradually leads to supporting the words and actions of racists.
Some commenters are (justifiably) frustrated by their interactions with still-brainwashed AA women. This leads to calling such women "mammies." This leads to being as VICIOUS and hateful toward these already-oppressed BW as any "hair flipper" that I've described in the past.
Some commenters are foreign-origin Blacks (West Indians and Africans) who come to these forums as voyeurs to insult AA men (and AAs in general) under the guise of supporting BW. These West Indian and African commenters rarely mention the many dysfunctions of their own societies. Or their own oppression as women within these societies. I had to ban one such foreign-origin voyeur from this site.
All of the behaviors I've mentioned above are as destructive as the original evil (the oppression of AA women) that these blogs are fighting. Those who engage in these behaviors are becoming the mirror image of that which they claim to be resisting.
Muslim Bushido
I had actually attributed some of what I had observed to mental illness, childhood trauma, or detractors of this blog trying to start a flame war in the comments section. I had not considered some of the other possible motivations listed. Thus the benefit of reading blogs with a different view point.
Just a reminder to be concisous that as you embark on your own journey of "empowerment" ( whatever that looks like to you), other people might try to use you to carry out their own agendas. You must always be mindful of that and never assume that the enemy of your enemy is your friend. Nor assume that everyone who is friendly is your ally. But by no means should you be silent because someone might come along with their own agenda.
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I can only speak being of West-Indian/Afro-Latina descent. I think it goes both ways and I would love to explore that. With the Rihanna situation, I read quite a few comments that alluded that Rihanna needed her beatdown because she was some Island voodoo priestess with a pissy attitude. Someone actually wrote that she did deserve to be beat because Caribbeans are more aggressive. These differences go about as far back as the beginning of the slave trade. It's not just foreign born blacks. I think there will be many who will be negative as Muslim Bushido wrote, but I think there are far more of us being objective and giving our opinions from the outside looking in.
We can discuss our issues all day. The racism in our countries, the sexism, even the colorism. Our problems are no different than yours. But if we are talking about African-American issues, what sense does it make to put our issues in there?
@seattleslim all this is over my head because I was born and raised in an area where you were either White or you weren't.
I too read the post and at first it was hard to swallow because I do have a West-Indian background and know exactly how that plays a part in my thinking towards African Americans, but particularly African American men.
Let me be the first to say that in reality there are setbacks to almost every black/African descented male in the world. Not all of em, but almost all of em living in the Caribbean, Europe, or African nations exhibit violent behavior that is almost always at the expense of black/African descented women and children. AA-self respect, unity, and the like is something I have always been for. But my main issue with this is, when one refuses to call themselves AA because they originate from the West Indies or African nations, it is almost seen as a plot to inhibit AA-unity? I have a problem with this because I feel I have the right to choose to identify as West Indian and not AA. It is my choice and has nothing to do with AA's. Our histories are indeed similar, but we are not the same. The cultures have their differences, and I find that people feel most comfortable where they were rooted from. For me that is being West Indian. For someone else that is being African, and for others it's being AA. I have been a victim of the acting black crew while I grew up in the states, and it was not a nice thing at all. This lead me to distance myself from the acting black crew, not other well-intended African Americans. But in general, I'd say the acting black crew fuels the distaste foreign born blacks have toward AA. Sometimes our families only glimpse of AA lifestyle or behavior is significantly skewed, because the media is the closest people come to seeing AA's. The media vehemently perpetuates stereotypes of many black people, foreign-born too, so it is a lose lose situation. What is worse, is that when foreign-born black and AA's do finally interact, both parties come with stereotypes about the other, and further justify each others misgivings because of this.
As for brain-washed AA women. I don't have a problem with calling them mammy. I have never done this overtly to another person, but what do you do when you are dropping knowledge on someone for their benefit, and they still blindly behave in a way that will fuel their own demise. That is a foolish person, plain and simple. I don't hate brain-washed black women, but some of their behavior and actions affects enlightented black women in negative ways. Our stock as black women in general go down. I am for creating a total separate category of black women in this case because I am not about to let a "mammy" affect my chances of having the type of life I want by getting people confused about whether or not I am just as brain-washed or foolish as her. My suggestion is to not focus on those type of women, as they can be stubborn and hard of hearing at times. Just ignore them and bless them on their way.
And in addition to that, I also saw some of the vitriol being spewed about West Indians in regard to Rihanna and it just sickens me. Seattle Slim, I agree that if many of these discussions have AA women's concerns at the forefront, then why bother to put our issues in there? I look from the outside in when it comes to these topics, and I think this perspective adds a lot more to the discussion, because we (other foreign-born blacks) see things that are sometimes not seen by AA women as easily since they are confronting the issue head on.
I wish she listed which Black Women Empowerment blogs: a few links would have been cool.
Her animosity towards "foreign born blacks" is amusing. I am one of those foreigners who grew up here. Oh, the stories I could tell. Way back in the day, when I was in high school this level of animosity got "foreign born blacks" beaten or killed. I guess they weren't blending in with sufficient haste, or weren't humble and appreciative enough of their "hosts."
Although words do have power, I cannot think of anything that anyone has written, or writes, that bothers me - even vile racist and/or sexist stuff. Life's too short.
Plus, I never assume I know who is who: no one knows if you are a "dog" on the Internet.
@Betty @Seattle @Mehara so are some of the beliefs she is ascribing to people of African descent from other countries inaccurate in your experience?
When I was growing up I actually think it was the opposite, black folks in the area of the country were keen to have connections with Africa of any sort. I remember these T-shirts with the red gold, green and Black and etc.
Enlightening. Tyou all for sharing.
My experience as an Afro-Caribbean person who does not live in the States but who persues the black blogosphere frequently is that yes, many of the issues which AA women address in the blogosphere are very similar to those of Black women in the Caribbean. However, I have had White Americans say to me that Black Americans will always have more in common with White Americans than with Black people from "the islands" or what have you, simply because they are American, and that should take precedence over anything else. To be an American is considered a very powerful thing internationally.
My feeling is that much of the petty differences that Black people throughout the diaspora tend to argue over and create division amongst themselves often comes down to a lack of political and historical knowledge.
For example, an AA on the blog you referenced said they would never support any black South Africans because he/she gave money to Mandela's cause and Mandela ended up not doing anything for African Americans. What this person fails to realize is that Mandela did not really do anything for Black South Africans either.
@ Mehara I agree with your comment. Your correct why should someone who is not from The United States identify as being an american , or if their parent's are from another country there's no logic to that.
"I have a problem with this because I feel I have the right to choose to identify as West Indian and not AA."
You do have this right, for example my mother and father are from Barbados, I was born in Canada I identify as Barbadian because that is my identity and cultural heritage.
@Betty chambers
"Her animosity towards “foreign born blacks” is amusing."
Dido, also last time i checked anytime someone leaves the country they were born or reside in they become a foreginer so that includes americans who live abroad or move from the usa.
Whenever I go back to my parent's place of birth, I sometimes cannot wait to leave. Beautiful place, but, folks I know happen to love criticizing, and complaining about America (the people), even if they've never stepped foot onto this country's soil, or lived here. Maybe these opinions are based on word of mouth, TV, maybe a connecting flight, poor observation, and one or two experiences. I dunno.
I grew up in Brooklyn, NY. Everybody from everywhere was, and is, arrogant, and feel, and felt culturally superior about themselves and their homeland.
I wish people didn't get offended, or angry, or took it so seriously. If people aren't nice, it's time to let it go, and get away from them.
Tongue in cheek: my favorite black folks are Nigerians and Jamaicans, because they are so arrogant. My other favorite are black Southerners, because they treat you like family. And I hang around South Asians a lot....
Hey, people are people.
There are a lot of nuances some of the responders are missing because they haven't taken the time to read all the blog postings over there. This isn't necessarily about agreeing with one person either. There does need to be an acknowledgment we have class and heritage differences.
I lived in the UK for a year and there is a difference. My traditions were not similar to the Black Brits of (Carib + African backgrounds) though we may have been able to trace some historical commonalities. I am distinctly American and since I'm not West Indian, Latino or African there are nuances that have to be recognized.
Some people do have agendas. Some people want to work together. But just like white people who want to be allies they can't just blindly jump in w/no recognition of white supremacy and how it's shaped their existence. That doesn't mean it has to be made into an insurmountable problem either.
If we're all trying to uplift Black women and girls we can each use our specific strengths to do so. We don't need to share the same perspective but we do need to have an agreed upon agenda with some parameters. It's the infiltrators and obstructionists we need to be aware of. That's where the expression "skin folk aren't always kin folk" comes from.
I agree with you 100% Faith. You definitely must consistently acknowledge your privileges before attempting to be someone's ally. I did attempt to contribute in good faith to the blog comments just now, and did not come with an agenda, but was called out by the blog owner for being a "defensive African". While I am not an African nor did I mean to be defensive, I must understand that perhaps there are just certain issues that I am not aware of, and certain privileges that I did not acknowledge as an Afro-Caribbean person and not an African-American person. I must admit I was hurt by her response, because I am committed to the upliftment of Black girls throughout the world. But as someone who is not an African-American, I perhaps need to respect that there are certain spaces belonging to African-American women where I cannot expect to automatically jump in, just because I am a black woman.
I've heard the word "mammy" so much I thought it was "in".
**********
& Much Agreement Re: You must take care not to fall into supporting racists despite one's justifiable anger at certain BM or AA behavior.
As for the "foreign black" issue. I can't speak for all, but I think the AA community is on the path of Awareness --much more farther along than must other black communities. I think that contributes to "foreigners" commenting or expressing what they think about it.
For example, I had the sorry depressing job of reporting a pedophile in a caribbean community, only then one person investigated and realized many others had to deal with sexual abuse on BW and children. But most of that community is still on the path of denial.
much more farther along than MOST.
(typo)
@anonymous I wouldn't be "hurt" by the comments. Again, I can't tell you how to feel. I told you before you went over there that you would challenged.
It is interesting that the comment about black people who don't live in the US is the one that everyone is focused on. She gave a number of additional potential motivations.
I've read comments on blogs defending black woman, that if taken out of context, could be found on a white surpremicist website. Especially some of the comments made about black men and blacks who are poor. I'm a firm believer that you don't have to put other people down to uplift others. I always try to be mindful not paint people with the same broad brush black woman are painted with. Sometimes it's difficult, but it's important not to become what your fighting against or empower people who have alterier motvies that are in conflict with who you are.
To answer the question, I do believe she is not completely inaccurate, but I am not sure she understands where we are coming from sometimes. We have issues, yes. We talk about them in our communities. I am keenly aware about the civil rights abuses in Jamaica. I can get into that all day, just like I can get into the racism in Panama, but while I am here in the US, racists don't see a difference, they see skin, so in that sense there must be unity. A Klan member will string my butt up right alongside an African-American man, woman or child regardless of our cultural differences. This is why I care because I live here and I want to help so all of us can be happy.
I think what the author at MB didn't mention was that West Indians are coming from a standpoint of independence. Haiti was the first black country to be independent from slave masters if I am not mistaken. Some of us are from countries that took independence from European motherlands or countries with European agendas. Jamaica is a sovereign, black nation so is most of the Caribbean and parts of Latin America. So I think there is a difference of view because of that.
The creators of many of those black women empowerment blogs don't really like black women.
You would think that those kinds of blogs would present black women differently, would seek to tell the truth about the real lives of black women.
Instead what I find is the same racist notions about black women, black men, and black people being repackaged as the key to black female empowerment.
The sweetness, the beauty, the intelligence, the big hearts and giving natures of black women, the great lives that many black women lead are rarely spoken about on blogs supposedly aboit the empowerment of black women.
To empower our daughters, the focus can't just be mostly on how terrible black MEN( be they fathers, rappers, politicians, reverends, or just the average guy) are, how terrible their LIVES as black women will be because back men suck so badly.
Presenting some group of black people as SCUM seems to be the thrust behind most empower black women blogs.
In that sense, those blogs aren't really about black women or their empowerment.
iamme73,
I'm not really sure what you're talking about. In fact, the creator of Muslim Bushido and many of the other women who comment over there, have provided me with many of the necessary and valuable tools needed to save myself.
By the way, what is the real truth about black women and the lives we live? Is there a blog that you can link us to that would give us some kind of insight into this life no one is talking about?
And also, if black women were living so GREAT (as you seem to believe we are) don't you think we would be shouting it from the hills and roof-tops?
We are a talkative bunch, ya know?
“Her animosity towards “foreign born blacks” is amusing.”
I very much agree that Khadija has a them vs. us mentality, as in AA vs foreign blacks. I even commented to her once and asked what did we ever personally do to her cause she seems fixated on us foreign blacks and how we supposedly take advantage of AA’s – which is very bizarre. Most foreign blacks I know are trying to survive and provide a good education for their children and provide a living for the relatives back home. Whenever I see her mention how us foreign blacks discuss AA issues for ‘kicks’ I always feel like she’s referring to me since we had a heated argument one day about AA vs. foreign blacks on her blog. When she discovered that I was African, all * broke loss. All of a sudden, I was picking on AA men, I was supposedly one of those Africans that look down on AA’s.
All in all, I was pretty confused by the discussion cause the truth of the matter is, me, just like most of the ‘foreign blacks’ that comment on AA blogs, I was raised here. A lot of us ‘foreign blacks’ that care enough to comment were raised here or spent a significant part of our youth here. That’s the reason why we care because believe me, foreign blacks raised elsewhere do not care. A lot of them just want AA’s to leave them alone. Also, for me, my younger sister was born here and her father is what we would call a dbrbm. So yes, you better believe I have a lot of say about useless AA men when I’ve lived with one for years and saw the kind of nonsense they like to pull. Does that mean foreign black men don’t act up, of course NOT!! But we’ve in America and the group most likely to harm me, my sister, (and other black females like us) are black men so you better believe I’m going to raise hell towards black men!!!! You better believe I have A LOT to say about them.
“But if we are talking about African-American issues, what sense does it make to put our issues in there?”
Exactly, just because you discuss AA issues, it doesn’t mean you believe yourself or your background to be spotless. Plus, us ‘foreign blacks’ have lived in our countries and the US, so we can comment on both cultures. Most AA’s don’t live in Africa or the Caribbean to be able to make informed comments so what’s the point of even bringing up our issues when a lot of them won’t understand. Khadija thinks she’ll understand, but unless you have lived in another country for a period of time (like us foreign blacks are doing), you really won’t understand the dynamics of what’s going on.
Destouet
You didn't really address what I actually wrote, but I am glad you have gotten something positive from those blogs.
The real lives of black women are diverse, have different joys, issues, acheivements and struggles.
Do you see that reflected in ANY of those empower black women blogs?
What I read is the same presentation of black women as the rest of society sees black women.
Maybe it is impossible for those of us who grew up in a society that in general hates black women, thinks little of black women to not reflect that same kind of thinking when writing about black women.
But the gist of the focus of those empower black women blogs is NOT about black women DOING well, is not about black women at all, but in general are about how this group of black people suck and make life hell for black women.
Although, this is an imperfect analogy, I have children and what I want them to know to empower their lives are the POSSIBILITIES that life has to offer, as parents we do that by living our lives not afraid of lifes's possibilities, and we want them to see other people who look like them, who come from similar backgrounds doing WELL, living great lives. We want to expose them to a wide range of interests be it art, music, poetry, architecture, airplanes, computers, etc.
Our children are very aware of racism, of the hatred that can exist in this world for people who look like them, but that is NOT the focus of their instruction, and we certainly don't focus on "what's wrong with their race". We don't present black people as a collection of negative stats, as a problemed people.
In other words, we don't do the work of racist America for them, we know they will get the idea that something is WRONG with the black race from other sources.
For me, most of those empower black women blogs are started by black women who don't like black women or black people and feel disconnected from both, and it is their prejudice towards black people that drives their "empower" black women campaign.
In other words for MANY empowering black women is really code for ATTACKING black people.
iamme73,
You said, "For me, most of those empower black women blogs are started by black women who don’t like black women or black people and feel disconnected from both, and it is their prejudice towards black people that drives their “empower” black women campaign."
Then there is no point in trying to explain anything else to you.
One African-American lady on Khadija's blog said that African-American men tell A.A women they prefer a non-A.A. woman because she is "less trouble." Don't A.A. women realize that in the Caribbean where I live they are saying the same things about us??!! Caribbean men are fond of telling us Caribbean women that they don't want "no island woman". They say they prefer African-American and UK women because they consider them to be more sophisticated, advanced and confident. Don't we women see what is happening here? There must be some black men of ALL nationalities just laughing at all this animosity and division between black women.
Just to add also, Caribbean women who live in the Caribbean do tend to look up to and respect African-American women (and A.A.s on the whole) a lot. I live in Barbados and this is a fact. Michelle Obama-mania is thriving on this little rock, but the admiration was there long before her, and for other A.A.s besides her.
It is true that there are some A.A.s who when they visit the islands do look down on us; some say we are still backward and have a slave mentality and are living in slave huts and I am not sure if that is what is causing some of the animosity. But this is not exclusive to A.A.s, Europeans and white Americans tend to do this as well.
I am sorry that there is so much division between A.A. women and non-A.A. women.
Sigh. I really wish some brave souls would list all the links to these "Black Women Empowerment" blogs. Do they actually call themselves that? Is there a linking system like AfroSphere / AfroSpear?
@goldenah. "empowerment" is in they eye of the beholder. But as for the linking I'm pretty sure that's called a blogroll.
@Destuet read the post and the post title again, ppl come into comments threads with agendas. iaamme's agenda is to make sure that Black women ignore certain things in order to make sure Black men don't look bad. It a belief system held by many AA's including, unfortunately, many Black women who are the victim's of violent crime.
Therefore I suggest you not waste your time engaging with someone who does not have your best interest at heart and wants to maintain the status quo.
When 94 % of Black ppl are killed by other black people, iamme wants us to ignore the 94 and focus on the 6. I say you must do both.
You must learn to ignore ppl who want you to be quiet because it makes other people look bad.
Chisholm, Tubman, Jordan, Truth at some point had to criticize- iaame would have told the the were too hard on Black people too.
I am a lurker here but this post really did move me. Made me consider my own motives even as a lurker. I enjoy this blog always has me thinking and reevaluating my own opinion but this post made me realize how easy it is to let one person's opinion really take over your mind set. Just made a sista pause for a minute and I appreciate the pause.
gem2001
What you wrote about me is just not the truth. My complaints have little to do with not wanting black men to "look" badly or maintaining the status quo for black women.
The unalterable fact is that Black men collectively in some ways and black men individually in MANY ways have and continue to hurt black women.
I would focus more on the political, and economic aspects of that hurt, but that is besides the point.
Generally, your blog is very good.
You don't do in general what those other blogs do in terms of discussing empowering black women and because of that You and your blog have the ability to appeal to a wider audience.
All I am saying in regards to MOST empower black women blogs is that it is prejudice towards and disconnection from black women and black people that DRIVES them.
I read the post last night and it deeply disturbed me and find a lot what I read to be contradictory and fake. The racism and intra-racism that we as a people display to each other is appalling.
Each and every one of us has the opportunity to better our own lives and many often choosing not to. The false teachings and lack of historical context has many people just as ignorant as any Caucasian ever was.
To turn a blind eye to suffering by the people of the African Diaspora is heartless and cruel. It's not the teachings of Islam nor of Christianity.
Immigrants who come to this country are hard working and determined to make a better life for their families. They are not taking anything away from the people who are native born, they saw the opportunities that the native born refused to grasp and create a better life for themselves and for their families.
They know that government is limited in influencing behavior and they know how to harness the ethic of hard work. No one is perfect and the issues of their past lives have nothing to do with the past lives of native born Americans when people attempt to make comparisons.
We are all victims of a caste system and it’s up to each and everyone of us to better our own lives to rise above this system of oppression.
I find nothing to be empowering when it comes to discrimination especially when it comes from people who have adopted the same behaviors of the very people they claim to hate.
I'm an African and proud !
I think that all of us foreign blacks just need to do what we've been doing. obviously, we're doing something right to be having such hateration on our backs. let's remember that khadija and her minions are just a few people. cause in my experience, most educated AAs do not harass foreign blacks, it's the acting black crew that never move on from high school that get their kicks from harassing us
"Some commenters are foreign-origin Blacks (West Indians and Africans) who come to these forums as voyeurs to insult AA men (and AAs in general) under the guise of supporting BW. These West Indian and African commenters rarely mention the many dysfunctions of their own societies. Or their own oppression as women within these societies. I had to ban one such foreign-origin voyeur from this site."
HELLO - Thank you Muslim Bushido for saying this. So true!