What About Our Daughters

I hope you don't mind me leeching off your readers, but here's my opinion. I'd really like to hear opinions from a woman's perspective.

http://www.theotalks.net/2008/09/when-palin-says-country-first-she-means-it

If the kids are quiet, I'll try to join the discussion tonight.

Well, she's not even BEEN ELECTED YET AND ALREADY

'DE BIBLE IS COMING OUT'

[btw, I'm a believer in Christ--BUT KEEP THE RELIGION OUT OF GOVERNMENT AND OUT OF OUR VAGINAS, BEDROOMS AND LIVES]

THANK YOU VERY MUCH...

IT AMAZES ME HOW THE RELIGIOUS 'RIGHT WING' GOS ON AND ON AND ON ABOUT THE HORRORS OF ISLAM AND THE 'CONTROL OVER WOMEN' IN ISLAM

YET--THEY WANT TO DO THE SAME TO WOMEN HERE UNDER

THEOCRACY WITH THE FIST OF THE LAW AND GOVERNMENT

#$##$@%#$@#$#%#$!%#$#

FREE WILL--THAT MEANS, JUST THAT, FREE WILL

CONGRESS SHALL ESTABLISH NO RELIGION

TODAY ITS CHRISTIANITY--IF YOU ALLOW IT, TOMORROW,

IT COULD BE SHARIA LAW

BECAUSE THE RELIGIOUS MOONBATS WITH THEIR 'EARTH IS FLAT AND THERE IS NO GLOBAL WARMING'

WILL OPEN THE DOOR TO IT...

WONDER IF THIS COUNTRY WOULD BE SOOOO UNDERSTANDING IF IT WAS A 'JEWISH' WOMAN?

DOUBT IT VERY MUCH, OR A WICCAN WOMAN, BWAAA, OH HELL,

IT BE, GET THE KINDLING WOOD GERTRUDE WE GOT SOME WITCHES TO BURN.

Did you EVER think, 2008, we would be welcoming back

THE MEDIEVAL PERIOD???? :0

Natasha
No Sharia, No Dhimmitude, No Established 'religion' and NO Totalitarianism and NO STATE MANDATED PATRIARCHY

geesh, is that So hard for feminism today??? :0

I want to stay focused on the issues. Stay focused on policy. Palin and all her drama is another reTHUGlican tool to distract us from the larger and pressing issues! Did you see the drop on Wall street today?

I am waiting for the GOP to introduce slavery/indentured servitude as a viable option to get good health insurance coverage for Americans. I mean it can't be that far off can it?

LOL LOL LOL OH LOVE THAT ONE, ISN'T IT THE TRUTH!!!!

"I am waiting for the GOP to introduce slavery/indentured servitude as a viable option to get good health insurance coverage for Americans. I mean it can’t be that far off can it?"

you know I was thinking about that yesterday, and They did do that to women who were destitute with children back in the day...they called them 'houses to keep prostitution off the streets' but they were Debtor's prisons, more like it [and of course, those good Ole Christian men you know, demanded services from those poor trash scarlet Witch women with their evil tempting ways, LOL] and then, Slavery,

damn right, thats what they'll do, hell they close to that NOW. And of course, the Right wing blogs are just all up in cream in jeans glee with photo shop pictures of how hot Sarah must be for their fantasy birthing nonstop woman, who of course, can fish and shoot better than them and Support them at the same damn time and be obedient too,

PUKE, PUKE, and you know, god forbid if she Does get elected, can you imagine,

scenario: husband, "why can't you have that Martha Stewart dinner And do all the housework And not ask me to change junior's diaper and pick up the kids from daycare [that she pays for out of HER check before she hands it over to him under the new Christian-Sharia laws of America] and lose about twenty pounds and perk those teets up baby and be the Good Godly Submissive Wife,

wife: shut up I'm doing the best I can [after working 8 hours with a four hour commute AND ALL THE UNPAID LABOR IN THE HOME]

husband: well I just don't see the problem, why our VP can do that and run the country too, why she's Superwoman, if she can do it So can you...

two months down the road husband kicks his not so Superwoman wife to the road with kids, all three of them, she goes to apply for assistance because she can't afford housing and the laws of divorce have changed now to only where men can file for divorce and men can commit adultery [cuzz ya know Can't hurt those Viagra sales, might hurt McCain's advertisements] but women, had better stay pure ya'll hear...none of that foolin around for you misses...

and the church [cuzz the welfare offices have been long shut down, not needed anymore]

church: Why, you poor dear, were you submissive enough? Well we can't do much but we can pray for you, that God will change his heart, in the meantime, you just sleep with him when he comes a round so you'll win him over with your graceful and submissive ways...

woman with kids crying: but my kids are hungry

church: just pray and God will take care of them...

later, about a month, woman and kids in debtors prison house, those houses for wayward 'scarlet' women, working off her SIN...

~~~~~~

Think this is extreme? Think again, I was a single mother abandoned in the South, Bible Belt and this is part of what I had to live through and it DOES HAPPEN...IF IT HADN'T OF BEEN, AND THAT WAS WITH FIGHTING AND YES I HAD A JOB--SLAVE WAGE AT THAT BUT IT WAS A JOB, FOR WELFARE DON'T KNOW WHAT I WOULD HAVE DONE, AND THAT WAS AFTER I LOST EVERYTHING...

forget Pro-life doing anything, AFTER that FETUS is born its screw you whore, unless you Sell that baby to some rich white woman [well, you give it up, the Adoption scam sells the kid or gets their 'cut'], its tough luck, go suck dick and I'M NOT KIDDING,

or go dance for some dollar bills...if you ain't too old,

with more extremism in government SLAVERY IS WHAT THEY'LL INSIST UPON, THOUGH THEY'LL CALL IT SOMETHING ELSE, LIKE,

TANF BUT MORE THAN TANF, I was off welfare [only for a year was I on it] but I saw how they were working that TANF and it might as well be slavery,

THE SYSTEM MAKES DAMN SURE, YOU MAKE MORE MONEY STRIPPING, POLE GRINDING, PORN FILMS OR PROSTITUTION/OR ESCORTS FOR 'GENTLEMEN REPUBLICAN CLUBS'

THAN YOU EVER WILL MAKE AS A TEACHER, DAYCARE WORKER, OFFICE ADMIN, ETC.,

there's a REASON for that...of course, DON'T GET PREGNANT BUT IF YOU DO ITS JUST TOO BAD and they'll See to that.

And of course, you know if you are a mother, raising kids isn't work, its 'get a job you lazy biatch',

but now, if you're a Man, and you change a diaper,

OR TAKE CARE OF THE KIDS WITH HELP FROM A NANNY OR TWO [SOME WOMAN OF COURSE POOR AS DIRT AND FROM ASIA OR MEXICO], while your Wife runs for VP,

why, HE'S CLOSEST THING TO GOD THERE IS, and the ladies go OOOOOOH [the ones who Were for the issues Hilary fought for, until they got taken over by the 'sleeper pods']

I grew UP in that conservative crap...its only by the Grace of God that I didn't abandon my faith altogether but it IS the reason, I am SO VOCAL NOW, and very loud,

and I saw how the system and the religious Right and the pro-lifers TREAT WOMEN, WHO ARE TEEN MOTHERS AND POOR AND WOMEN OF COLOL, I LIVED IN THE PROJECTS AND THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL,

I WILL BE SILENT WHILE THOSE CHRISTIAN TALIBAN MOONBATS TRY AND DO THAT GARBAGE TO WOMEN IN THIS COUNTRY AND TO MY DAUGHTERS AND ALL THE DAUGHTERS WITHOUT A FIGHT...

"Those who do not move, do not notice their chains." ~Rosa Luxemburg

Natasha

p.s. It IS refreshing to come to a blog and read other women who Know and see, who have been there, and you are right, thats What is so sinister about this entire election...is that IS what they will do, introduce slavery and indentured servitude not as an 'option' but in their demeaning and paternalist chauvinism, and racism, 'if you Can't afford children and health insurance then don't you know, you are not deserving of rights like us, better than you types'...thats the psychological warfare against the poor in this country and has been for a very long time...ITS WHAT THIS COUNTRY WAS BUILT ON,

INDENTURED SERVITUDE [OF WOMEN SAME TIME SLAVERY WAS INTRODUCED, BELIEVE IT OR NOT] AND SLAVERY AND EXPLOITATION...and there are those who AREN'T going to be happy until those institutions are back and solid as ever.

What I have seen in the Bathory feminists, in their opposition to Obama, at first, I thought it was because of their anger towards Hilary, maybe even racism, on some, yes, thats part of it, but after reading and reading, no,

It was, people of CLASS PRIVILEGE, THOSE WHO KEEP THE STATUS QUO GOING--WHO THOUGH JUST A PAYCHECK FROM THE POOR--WILL LOOK DOWN ON THOSE POOR OR UNDERCLASS OR WORKING POOR,

Those who keep that status, SAW THE SLEEPING GIANT AWAKE, THAT GIANT OF RESTLESS NATIVE JUST LIKE, BACK IN THE DAYS OF SLAVERY WHEN SLAVES STARTED TO REVOLT...

AND BY GOLLY THEY GOT SCARED AND SAID, OH WAIT, WAIT, NO, NO, WE DON'T WANT 'THOSE' KIND OF CHANGES...

and THE CLAWS CAME OUT...AND THEY NOW SIDING IN WITH THE MOST EXTREME OF RIGHT WING TO PUSH BACK,

THE TIDE OF DISCONTENT, THOSE 'UNDESIRABLES' THAT, HAVE AWAKENED TO CONSCIOUSNESS...

and its NOT that I concur with a lot of the forces pulling the left, [I worked in far left so I know whats going down there], but,

what the Right wing has seen is the merging of a class revolt and they didn't like it, so now they are pushing it back because while they may be suffering too, they Don't want to lose what little grasp they have on what 'used to be',

and the Working Class [those who aren't racist and stuck on protecting that elitist shit] are going to have to now, GO FOR THE JUGULAR, AND NO TURNING BACK.

I was talking to my husband the other day about this, and it really Has come down to, its NOT about right or left, or center, in fact its getting to, more and more, what side you choose and I think, its going to boil down to issues of class and extremes,

but I think, it IS going to come down to it as being about class. At least from where I sit, can't say for the entire country...I don't think, we can be free to sit on the fence anymore. Put it that way,

and I noticed that by a lot of what I read on many blogs, the lines are being drawn, no doubt in my mind.

Anybody watching the OReilly interview with Barack Obama?

NATASHA!!! Lay off the CAPS! I like my CAPS with the best of them,

BUT NOBODY WANTS TO READ PARAGRAPHS OF THEM.

My readers are pretty smart and read each other's comments. You don't need THAT MUCH ADDED EMPHASIS.

Something else too that I think a lot of people aren't aware of, is that welfare, well, AFDC, was first created to Keep women in the home and out of the workforce, believe under Roosevelt???[would have to go back and pull out my books] but then, it became a program to enforce Segregation and keep African American women in ghettos and out of society, per se, for many years,

Welfare was a system created by both patriarchy and racists to keep women and African Americans, Puerto Ricans [Mexicans they were using as slaves in LA, agriculture and in the south, harvesters, etc and in fact they still do, you just don't hear about it], but,

welfare was an extension off those debtors prisons and houses for 'wayward' women during the days of Christian 'Socialism' and Victorian purity, I'm sure a lot of those programs was to Keep socialism and communism OUT of America, but the system has Always been about controlling and segregating race, gender and class, good book by Piven & Cloward on this , "Regulation of the Poor", controlling the mass or excess labor pool...

its Never truly been about 'helping' anyone, why they demoralize you when you need help. Its about keeping that patriarchy, class and race hierarchy in place,

and you Really see it if you ever live on it. They don't 'segregate' women by race in projects and in HUD housing just out of coincidence, there's a strategic reason for that. Same reason they bust up Tent Cities, don't want people talking AND regentrification works the same way too,

ever notice, the areas in urbanized areas they redevelop first are Always those areas that are 'diverse'. The Last thing they want is for people to get together and start talking--thats really dangerous,

whether one supports Obama or not, the thing is, it brought out so many of these issue and PEOPLE started talking...what came out,

racism, classism and sexism, and hey, NOT just in white people either...there's enough to go around all over,

but it came out and it shows just how Assimilated we all, whether we know it or not, have become in this culture of capitalism, and not saying there isn't 'some' good things about capitalism [I prefer a whole NEW economic philosophy written by Women, after all we are the backbone to every economy in the WORLD why not--and that includes agriculture, 80% women, poorest of the world but women, textiles and raising children which is, future labor, so why not?]

but people think the issues of tension are ONLY about war, economy, etc etc etc., but no, the Root of so many of those issues really is about Race, Class and Gender. And I would say Race and Class way more than Gender because just as many women will fight to protect either race first or class first.

And then, of course throw in 'religion' in there...

but we live in a nation that has become accustomed to 'pacification' and what is very concerning is how many are running to the Maverick far right, for that pacification...but question is,

pacification for what? National Security? no, too many want to keep investments overseas and with multinationals here, so That can't be it, really,

for economy? Not really, because if That was it then more would have backed up any calls for unions and worker's rights,

for feminism? LOL LOL LOL well think we know the answer to THAT ONE,

for protection of 'class privilege and race privilege'?

Hell yea, because like Obama or not, [and excluding yes, the extreme left in the behind the scenes] but Just based on American domestic policy alone...

what Surfaced, or is surfacing, the gut of America, and it isn't pretty, thats for Damn sure...and its that poisonous Gut that has been, the backbone truly,

of every bad foreign and domestic policy there is in this nation. In other words, we can only 'blame ' the elites so much...because when the covers are slowly removed, what Shows, is what has been festering in this nation from day one...

I'm as patriotic as the next person, but they forget, patriotism and all the rights we have fought for were based on those beliefs, those principles, even though they may have at That time only been for white male property owners, those principles were still written in word...

and its been the fight every sense. Not against foreign enemies so much, but against Those in this country, who have wanted to Keep those principles ONLY for white male property owners...

and That, That is what is coming out more and more, in the political thinking in this country. Sadly, on both sides of the political stage too.

Natasha

Yesterday the RNC was on fire. Today, was like one long cold shower. We may not have to worry. If you could have seen the folded arms when Tom Ridge and Lindsey Graham spoke...well, let's just say Palin may be popular, but there are still some issues with McCain and company.

As a matter of fact, her popularity and the lack of popularity of some notable current republicans may provide a window of opportunity for Barack Obama.

There are definitely still some sour grapes.

Awww, I wanna call but the kiddies are making way too much noise!

Anyway, I've been tuning in and out all evening and I agree that the tone has certainly changed. But any mention of Sarah gets them back on their feet so she def. did her job last night.

Obama held a short news conference today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iNvoRBF4_c

He's trying to keep the focus on McCain which is really all he can do at this point.

Cindy Lou taught special needs children.

Hmm, I think they forgot to mention that, although Cindy Lou found love, she found it with another woman's husband.

I'll watch it again, later. I'm sure I must have missed that part. Surely they wouldn't have skipped over it.

Okay, comin' to the stage we got war vet. He's a hot head. Put your hands together for John McCain.....

People are crying. The crowd is moved. I know people are saying that they're getting sick of him talking about his experiences.

But, I actually don't have a problem with it.

I have a problem with his policies. In my family the options were few, 1) go to college or 2) go to the military. I tried both. College worked out much better.

I have an uncle that was in Vietnam. He seldom wants to talk about his experiences.

Have you guys noticed that little grin McCain gives, when he thinks he's done well?

great job!! i still ain't voting for him due to his policies but I must admit he looked mighty presidential.

I also appreciated the "call to arms" at the end. We all need to Do more and complain less.

I thought he was wooden throughout and had an awkward cadence, but I did try to listen to what he was saying instead of focusing on delivery.

Well, I feel better now. Nothing like a John McCain snooze-fest to help Obama pivot the conversation off of the dynamism of Palin.

McCain's only chance to beat Obama is to allow Palin to be the primary message-bearer. But, lucky for Obama, there's no way McCain can get away with that because at the end of the day he's the one running for president.

Yes, I can go to sleep now. We're going to be just fine.

I thought he appeared worn out; tired and unconvincing about believing what he was spewing. His voice just didn't sound commanding or reassuring to me. He sketched around particulars, perhaps saving for the debates. I'm not moved to vote for him.

I saw part 1 of Obama on the O'Reilly factor- I thought he handled himself well. Strong statements without triping up.

Food for thought- given Palin's beliefs about birth control and selective abstinence, and her age of 44; if she gets in as VP she may elect to continue to add to the world population once again. And of course, continue to make history. I'm a mom myself but I wouldn't want to be pregnant, working, and ready to run the country if need be!...

It was a terrible speech with a spotty delivery. Nothing like the sock-it-to-them of Sarah Palin's delivery. McCain will get a bounce in the polls due to her energizing the base and then it will drop back down because people just don't like McCain.

You guys will appreciate this...CNN has been totaling the cost of Cindy Lou's clothes during her speech - $300,000 (including accessories). Skip a tax cut, send me that outfit...there's a nice little house down the street.

I feel asleep during the speech. I am not hearing a buzz about it or anything.
Someone needs to tell Natasha to get her own blog, her posts are way too long, I don't even read them

I missed quite a bit of it. The best part was the end. Seriously. "Go with me! Work with me! Thank you." Or something like that. He should fire his speechwriter. Then again, skip that thought.

I think you all might be missing the point: he was not there to "fire up the party" with rhetoric, he was there to accept the nomination and to evoke images of patriotism, duty to country, and appearing presidential. I am amazed at the number of people who have talked about the fact that they did not know Cindy McCain did humanitarian work, met several times with Mother Theresa, and brought nurses and doctors to areas where there were none. They were impressed with that, and impressed with how her father started with a small sum of money and built it into one of the largest beer distributorships in this country. That's what white folks (who will be deciding this election) want to see and hear.

They also wanted to see and hear John McCain himself talk about his POW experience. I remember as a teenager seeing on television when McCain was released from the "Hanoi Hilton" (yes, I admit... I'm one of those babyboomers) and seeing that on his bio film brought it all back. I, for one, thought that part of his speech was the best part because he talked about his transformation after that experience. That is what people like to hear, particularly the people he is trying to get to vote for him. I also thought he did a fair job of stating some of the things he wants to do. Now, whether he'll do them is another story, but to discount his speech as boring and ineffective is a mistake, IMO.

Also, I'd like to comment about the post that said CNN was tallying up the costs of what Cindy McCain was wearing: do you actually believe that type of reporting is going to help Obama? I repeat what I said on another post yesterday, the MSM is doing a disservice to Obama by focusing on things that may irritate or inflame that voter base that Obama needs to win to vote for the other candidate.

@BlackScorpio

You may have a point about the media doing Obama a disservice. MSNBC today wrapped up the discussion of the Republican Convention today. What did they do? They decided to replay parts that they thought were funny. I do believe some people are getting a little irritated with the bias. People already have no respect for Fox and their version of the news.

@Yme:People already have no respect for Fox and their version of the news.

You must mean Black people, because white people watch Fox news overwhelmingly. And, check the Nielsen ratings: from the beginning of the primary season, Fox news has beat all the broadcast news networks and all other cable news outlets as the most watched news station during the primetime hours in the evening on a weekly basis. Nielsen is also reporting that John McCain's acceptance speech was watched by more people than Obama's speech at Invesco field!

Blacks may not respect Fox news, but you should be watching it sometimes. Fox news is a sort of "barometer" of what white America might be thinking. Obama has finally agreed to give an interview with Bill O'Reilly on Fox news, and it will be shown in three parts next week. Even Obama recognizes that if he hopes to connect with the voting block he needs to win, he has to answer questions by the people this voting block watch the most.

Also: that Oprah story is getting a lot of traction on Fox news; they will probably begin trashing her by the weekend for allegedly not wanting to interview Gov. Palin. They are asking their viewers to go to their website and vote on whether they believe Oprah's proffered reason is the real reason she does not want to interview Gov. Palin.

Oh, boy... folks are going to get whipped up about this, IMO.

I have been reading the comments posted here for a while now. For the most part I really like them. They offer different points of view that I don't agree with much, but I still enjoy reading them. However......sometimes I am amazed that certain posters seem to be a "slave" to there own world view. If I recall, a Republican president suspended part of the constitution (habeus corpus) while fighting our countries bloodiest war. Ah....I think it was called "The Civil War", yeah...thats it, The Civil War. As a result "slavery" was abolished. It seems to me that the ones who want to bring slavery back are the ones who try to convince you that you can do nothing in this life without their "help". The Dems have been playing you like a fool for a very long time! When will you realize that we live in the most "free" country ever? And that you have opportunities here like no place else. Why wait for some self-appointed "messiah" to come lead you to the promised land? When this life is over will you be able look back and thank God for His blessings? To thank Him that you lived a life well lived? Or will it be a life full of regret because your leaders who promised you everything but was not able to deliver on hardly any of it. The bottom line is that each of us are given one life, and I don't intend to waste mine by being miserable. When it comes down to this election I ask you-how much longer are you going to hold the Republicans responsible for slavery when it was a Republican president who secured the freedom? Or are you content to consign your life to a man whose purpose it is to make you make you more and more dependent upon him and his "many" promises?

@BlackScorpio
LOL. Actually, I watch Fox News, CNN, MSNBC, Headline News, CSPAN, etc.

I feel like if I watch them all, I'll get a little bit of the truth.

@Yme: Now see, you are my kinda person! LOL I, too, watch all the news outlets, except I had to quit watching MSNBC and NBC because of their hateful speech directed at Hillary Clinton. I have never watched so much Fox news in my life as I have this election cycle, and it has been an eye-opener.

@GC: I agree with you 1000%! I could not have said that better myself, and it echoes my sentiments exactly. I've been an Independent thinker and doer all of my adult life, and it is amazing to me how people don't take the time to actually evaluate a candidate's credentials/ideas/upbringing to discern who they think will make the best rep/senator/council member/mayor and so on. There are prejudiced people in all political paarties and until Black folks realize that there is good in both the Republican and Democratic party, we will still be talking that same tired crap that Revs. Al and Jesse seem to trot out when they think it is convenient.

I am particularly incensed at the way many Black women take a back seat to Black men and allow them to set the agenda. We are the backbone of the Black community and our issues should be addressed, yet many time we allow the men to speak because we've bought into this myth that the Black man is constantly being held down.

Whew, sorry for going off topic, but it "chaps my hide" the way the Black community perpetuates sexism and racism within its ranks.

@GC ahem...

First you speak as though the Dems are the ones attempting to take back a lot of the strides we made during the civil rights period. While Affermative Action has its faults the time for removing it is not yet apparent. The playing field is still not level, this is painfully evidence at all the people who would rather refer to Obama as an uppity n**** first off please be aware that the GOP senator from GA made that assessment. Secondly the GOP wanted and got an idiot in the form of Clarence Thomas on the Supreme Court. I can tell from from someone who has worked for the Federal Judiciary, Thomas is not revered in the halls of Federal Justice. Here is a man who just sits there, does not make any comments and yet he holds a very high position in government.

I actually have to doubt your blackness because you stop short of saying that we should be grateful for slavery because we got here.

That is the same moronic argument some of these so called right wing journalists have been touting for months. That we should "thank god for slavery" is just like saying that we should "thank god for 9/11" because it allowed so many rich folks to get even richer. That would be just as moronic a statement. Yes we need to move forward, yes we need to pull ourselves together. However the part of the argument that you and so many others leave out is that it is going to take ALL OF US, the rich as well as the middle class to march forward and pull ALL OF US

out of the mess we now find ourselves in. To remove the protections that are now in place is akin to putting your umbrella away as the monsoon hits.

Oh By the By: You cannot be a student of history, neither the emancipation proclimation nor the civil war abolished slavery. If you were really a student of history you would know that it was the thirteenth ammendment. If you wish to speak as an intellectual make sure that your statments are intellectually accurate. You might find yourself walking into an intellectual buzzsaw.

People who were kidnapped and the guilty get off scot free and you want to argue that the time for us being vigilant has passed..... You are either niave or foolish, either way you are very very wrong!

CNN) -- A federal appeals court overturned the kidnapping conviction of a reputed Klansman in connection with the 1964 deaths of two black teenagers in Mississippi.

A three-judge panel from the Fifth Circuit Court Appeals sided with James Ford Seale's claim that he should have never been tried for the disappearances of Charles Eddie Moore and Henry Hezekiah Dee because the statute of limitations on the alleged offenses had expired.

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Seale was convicted by a federal jury in June 2007 of kidnapping and conspiracy to commit kidnapping in the abductions of the teens, who were both 19. Charges were filed against him in January 2007.

Seale was 71 when convicted. In his appeal, he claimed he should never have been prosecuted because a 1972 amendment to federal kidnapping laws established a five-year statute of limitations. The appeals court agreed, overturning Seale's conviction and acquitting him.

Seale was arrested in 1964 along with Charles Edwards, who has since died, but the two were released on bail and never tried.