What About Our Daughters

I didn't know that Joe was real. Its funny that Obama did not know that seeing that he talked to him. Fox network talks about socialism. I really don't think that the government should tell the American people what to do in their lives...that is one step that we do not want to do is to have the government dictate what will happen to us and our monies. That will lead to more trouble down the road. Anyway, this by far was one of the BEST debates. McCain as always was very pointed and blunt,and Obama was careful in how he placed his words. Can't wait to chat with you all on election night.

Yeah I was watching that feed live. Obama didn't get into specifics with Joe about his tax increase. I'm still not sure how much of a tax increase is in store. 3%, 10%? But if other expenses come down it would even out. Did Joe know he was going to become a star?! neither one of them talked about lower income and working class people let alone the homeless. I thought I saw steam coming out of McCain's ears at some point. 20 days and counting!!!

What will we all obsess over when this thing is over?

After this is over, we will over-scrutinize Barack's every move or failure to act.

Okay, 95% of Americans are going to get a tax cut. That's kind of interesting since there's much less than 95% of people paying taxes. I wonder how that works?

I think Obama won the debate. It was as boring as the other two. I also said I was going to stay away, but I couldn't. The continued references to Joe the plumber was hilarious. I though McCain acted a little desperate, and that Obama look calm, although he did seem to get ruffled at one point.

Does Joe the Plumber make over 250,000? If that is possible I should have dropped out of junior high and went to plumbing school. Why does he care, all people are gonna need their tiolet fixed regardless of their income. I could understand if he was selling luxury cars but he is one of those necessity industries. He will get his money regardless.
And with that 800 billion dollar bailout, a tax increase is inevitable no matter who comes into office.

RevyRev, SO WHAT? For months Black folks have been told to hold their peace until he gets int the White House now you want folks to hold their peace AFTER he gets in the White HOuse. Obama knows what he is getting in to. He also accepts that part of running for and being president is criticism. SO get over it. He has. There has always been this GAPING disconnect between Barack and MIchelle's words and those of the accolytes.

The thing that struck me last night watching him, and yes, I think he acted very presidential, was the fact that he exuded dignity, grace and class that many of his most ardent supporters have not. That has irritated me the entire campaign that he was campaigning on reconciliation, hope, change and Accolytes were intentionally countermanding him by running around practicing fear, intolerance, and just plain foolishness.
Which is why I believe now as I believed then that acolytes are his greatest weakness. They repel people who might otherwise vote for him if not for their zealotry.

I suspect that the ones scrutinizing his every move will be the Accolytes. Not all Obama supporters are acolytes of course.

@Naima , Joe the plumber's business will make over $250,000. That means all of the profits any of his employees bring in as well. If you are a small business, you likely claim your income on your own tax return instead of filing a separate return for the corporation.

But yes, quiet it kept. Plumbers. mechanics, electricians pull down loot. But we have bought into the myth that going to college is the only way to get rich. The truth is that a whole lot of us would have been better off using the time and money we spent in undergrad or grad school building a business. Of course this only works if you are sucessful at business. Otherwise stay in school and work for someone else.

I thought about going to get an MBA, but passed. Instead I am taking the money and investing it in myself and as a small businesswomen(squee) I have learned more than I could ever learn in business school. The stuff I don't know... I teach myself or hire someone to do it for me.

I want to be Joe the Plumber one day.

Joe the Plumber is a shill for the McCain campaign. Joe's father is connected to Charles Keating.

He was a plant.

I was tired of hearing about Joe the plumber. Neither Joe the plumber nor Joe six pack represent me.

I thought Obama appeared calm and in charge, not rattled @ all. I thought it was very 'big' of him to ignore several of the digs McCain threw out there, it showed he was attempting to stay focused and on the issues. I was very pleased with how he handled the questions about his VP selection, Palin and abortion.

He will be criticized. What President hasn't? He will obtain office at a time when the country is in a bad situation, both home and abroad. All the major issues can't be erased easily or quickly. It took years for our country to get in this mess.

I look forward to the Obama family representing the new First family. They will not be exempt from the positive or the negative that comes with their new titles.

But, it's not in the bag yet, get out there and vote!

I know the blue collar guys make good money, I just didn't know that Joe the Plumber was a business owner.

What I do know is that those blue collar white men exclude blacks from joining the union and their apprenticeship programs.

@ Lady C;

Where was this information about Plumber Joe obtained from? The Keating relationship I mean.

http://www.eisenstadtgroup.com/2008/10/15/joe-the-plumber-wurzelbacher-related-to-charles-keating-oops/

Here's another item from Dailykos.

Scrolled down to the 2nd story on this page:

http://www.dailykos.com/

@Naima
What I do know is that those blue collar white men exclude blacks from joining the union and their apprenticeship programs.

I know blacks in unions and apprenticeship programs.

I think proving Joe the plumber is phony is fruitless. It may make us feel better, but I have a friend who is a small business owner. She fits into the "joe the plumber" niche nicely.

The point that "real" or "fake" Joe was making was made by her to me long before Joe showed up. According to Obama, she's rich. In reality its her business that's bringing in the money. And, what she keeps - she doesn't spend wining and dining, she pours back into her business. This means she can hire, expand, etc.

When a small business has to pay out more money, it's got to come from somewhere. It'll come from us, one way or another. Either because people like my friend will raise prices, lay off employees, or postpone expansion.

Now, you could argue that the economy will be so wonderful after 8 years of Bush that small businesses would grow anyway, but then you'd wake up and realize you've been dreaming.

I think Obama's plan of raising taxes in a bad economy stinks. I think he would simply be growing government which seems to be corrupt enough at its current rate. I don't like many of Obama's plans. I don't like his health care plan. I work with people who come from places that have the kind of health care plan he's talking about. As awful as our system is, they prefer it. They don't have to be placed on a waiting list for simple outpatient procedures here. They get to choose their own doctors, etc. One of my coworkers brother in law drives down from Canada, just so he can get some things done.

McCain is clueless and so his plans aren't even worth mentioning usually. I don't see the average American understanding his health care credit system or whatever it is. He may not be Bush, but I don't see how his economic policies would help us anymore than Bush's did.

So, I think its a wash. I'm not expecting much in real change from either of these men. I just want to get the election over with it, so we can move on. I'm tired of the rhetoric from both sides. I was all excited when this thing started. Now, I just want it over.

"What I do know is that those blue collar white men exclude blacks from joining the union and their apprenticeship programs."

I know that in PA you need a valid driver's license to be an apprentice. Between suspended licenses and delinquent child support, there are a ton of us who don't have them, so this is more of a case of us excluding ourselves.

I didn't say there weren't any, there are not a lot of them. Even if you go to a majority people of color city most of their union will still have only a hand full of black folks. They usually let their own friends and relatives join the training programs.

@ Lady C- thanks for the link.

Obama's plans may not work, but McCains seem destined to fail. The new President for the most part has to clean up after the previous president unless there's some emergency that allows for quick passage of bills/laws.

I think deep down, McCain is relieved that he won't inherit the mess that exists. It's not going away easily.

@cinco
I think McCain may as well be relieved. If you believe the polls, the race seems to be over for him.

Democracy is not free, some one has to get taxed.

Cinco, below is another link:

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/16/joe-in-the-spotlight/?hp

Yme, I think it is quite relevent whether Joe is genuine or fake. If he is a shill for the McCain camp, it goes to show what poor judgement McCain has. If his economic policies are genuine, they should stand on their merits and not shenanigans.

Everywhere I've looked, it states that Joe doesn't know what he's talking about. Accountants say Joe doesn't state whether his earnings are gross or net. The difference in the two may make a difference in what his tax bracket ends up being.

Joe supposedly said the business is earning $250,000 to $280,000 a year while talking to Obama, but back tracked on the actual earnings when talking to a reporter.

Obama's plans for raising taxes in a stinking economy is about all he can do to get the economy back on track. What experts say, and what McCain won't say, is he will have to raise taxes, also. My guess is, McCain doesn't intend to raise taxes on the rich, so I guess it will be you and me, babe.

Cinco, this will be my last link. It is from a local source.

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081016/NEWS09/810160418

Just to clarify. Obama does have tax incentives and tax breaks for small businesses and individuals who are self employed in addition to credits that help small business owners cover employee payroll taxes and a plan for assisting them with providing health care coverage. Rolling back the Bush tax cuts is not a choice at this point, it really is a requirement. The economy has not faired better since they came into existence, and although tax rates were higher under Clinton, more people did well and wealth was more evenly distributed. Small business owners did well too and more millionaires were created during that era. Obama’s tax cut does cover the majority of Americans and I think a strong economy is what helps small business owners more than anything else and right now they’re hurting, primarily because the economy is. People can’t get their toilets fixed, if they can’t stay in their homes or do Christmas shopping at their local boutique if their drowned in medical bills.

Also, Obama’s healthcare plan is not socialized medicine. Although McCain likes to compare it to Canada’s system, it’s not. You can keep your insurance or buy the insurance that Obama and McCain get at an affordable price based in your income. You can choose your doctor and you don’t have to have “government in between you and your doctor” the way McCain/Pallin like to pretend. Right now we pay for everyone’s coverage because people are using emergency rooms for preventative care. If we don’t make an effort to finally provide everyone with healthcare in this country we will pay the price. A $5000 credit for a family is a joke. If we give people the option to choose to buy into a plan that is actually affordable and doesn’t discriminate against people we will be much better off in the long run. If the coverage is good enough for them, it’s good enough for me. We end up paying for all these people who never had preventative care when their senior and on Medicare. It’s a shame that in such a wealthy country, we let so many people go with out life saving preventative treatment.

Obama's 95% Illusion

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122385651698727257.html

Joe needs to go and pay his taxes and get his plumbers license before he worries about money he hasn't even made yet.

Gina, #7
I agree with you. I think that we should demand that score be kept on Barack just as anyone else, but not to the point where we threaten to withhold our support on minor issues and are silent on the majors. Black leaders in almost any arena oftentimes face double-standards when it comes to performance evaluation.

It has been revealed by the Ohio Union that Joe has no license to practice plumbing. He works under someone else. As old as Joe is, he's had ample time to get one. To me, that speaks to what Joe really is about. If he was truly industrious and really wanting to open his own plumbing business, he would have had a license by now. Joe was a plant.

Oh well so much for Joe Six Pack/Plumber. No license, owes back taxes, a registered Republican and a relative of Charles Keating. And here I thought Obama was gonna have a legit threat to respond to with this. McCain's race wars are still going on but have been dealt a serious blow. This is just beyond pathetic. Plus I crunched his tax credit credit for health insurance numbers and my taxes would go up 4% which is more than the 3% increase under the Obama plan for those $250K earners of which I am NOT. I'd get back a few hundred under the Obama plan IF it works out the way he proposes. McCain's desperation is really showing now. Racist white people can't keep being the determining factor in these elections anymore.

Lord have mercy! Y'all have been busy all day talking about "Joe the Plumber." Like seriously, why extend his 15 minutes of fame to a half hour? What was so scary about this man that made folks go back and research his family tree and the fact that he has no plumber's license?

Stop seeing monsters around every corner. Joe is this week's flavor of the week on this campaign.

There is nothing NEW about Joe the Plumber. Ronald Regan used the same thing on Mondale- tried to label him as a tax and spend liberal. Thats what Democrats do, they tax. So this isn't some new attack.

Let Joe go. so he can fade out of the news cycle, because if you attack Joe, that means you allow his 30 minutes of fame to stretch into an hour you do not want people talking about taxes. So move on.

I am not listening to any of these plans because the next president isn't going to be able to implement any of them . The first 100 days will be spent on the economy. the economy. the economy and that's assuming somebody does start a frigging war. Then my mid 2009, the focus will shift to the 2010 midterms.

Sorry, but as usual y'all have gone chasing down a rabbit hole. The only thing that matters int his election is turnout. The ground game. All this other stuff is a waste of your valuable time.

Joe the Plumber is the Paris Hilton of October. Get over him. You can't control the minds of every single human being in this country.

@RevyRev, again, I reject the notion that any elected official should be protected from the views of their constituents. That's ridiculous.

@gem2001,
LOL! I don't think people are giving Joe 15 extra minutes of fame. It's just funny, because Just now on TV, it has been announced that Joe makes $40,000 a year and his boss makes $100,000. Both would benefit from Obama's tax plan. I'm sorry, but I think that is funny as hell. P.S. I already voted.

Not to keep going on this Joe thing, but the fervor is ridiculous. The man said he WANTED to buy the business. His true objection is the idea of progressive income taxes. This isn't some revolutionary idea. The Republicans trot this out every four years so why is everyone having a conniption?

@ KIM I am glad you voted. I get to vote ont he 20th and I can't wait so I can tell people to stop sending me annoying emails filled with hysteria. They should save their energy from election night in the event this thing comes down to some hanging chads in Ohio.

@clnmike
"Democracy is not free, some one has to get taxed"

We can pass what we have off as a lot of things, but democracy isn't coming to mind. We have at least six people running for president. Where were they last night?

As for someone has to get taxed, I agree. Make it fair, let's demand real representation and actually expect to get something for our money besides a bad economy, failing schools, crooked politicians and a health care system that is questionable.

@LadyC

"Obama’s plans for raising taxes in a stinking economy is about all he can do to get the economy back on track. What experts say, and what McCain won’t say, is he will have to raise taxes, also. My guess is, McCain doesn’t intend to raise taxes on the rich, so I guess it will be you and me, babe."

LOL. Yeah, you're right. Unfortunately, eventually, my taxes go up for some reason regardless as to who gets into office. I've heard this "raise the taxes on the rich" before. And, still got nailed.

These people get you coming and going. And, it wouldn't be so bad, if there was something good to show for it at the end of the day. I think they ought to do more with what they have. Take education. We're paying more than most other countries and we're still like 4th from the bottom.

To me, this means they don't need more of our money. They need a better plan. They're not using our money wisely. I feel no need to give them any more of anyone's money to pay for race car tracks, sheep, and children's arrows.

@Zabeth
Thanks for the link. I had no idea how bad it really was!!! But, honestly. What does McCain have to offer? Not a thing.

YME- nobody is raising taxes. they will let the Bush tax cuts expire, but nobody is going to take an active vote to increase taxes. Can you say 1994? So even if President Obama wants to raise various taxes, the Democrats in the House are not stupid enough to do it.

Naw uh uh. We just gon' keep running up a deficit and mortgaging our futures to CHina.

Clnmike-Regarding Democracies requiring taxes... I don't have a problem paying taxes. I like Law enforcement and emergency services. I like driving on well maintained highways. I like public parks and I want to live in a city with an educated populace. HOWEVER, ain't nothing wrong with occasionally cutting government spending BEFORE you turn to me with your hand out. I think for every dollar increase in taxes, they ought to cut $3 out of the federal budget. WHo said government always has to get bigger?

"Lord have mercy! Y’all have been busy all day talking about “Joe the Plumber.” Like seriously, why extend his 15 minutes of fame to a half hour? What was so scary about this man that made folks go back and research his family tree and the fact that he has no plumber’s license?"

Not to be labor the point, but I assumed Joe the Plumber was up for discussion because of your post.

Obama has said time and time again that he would cut programs that are not working and streamline those that are redundant. However, it will not, per the experts, be enough. He will raise taxes, or he can continue to borrow from China, Japan, and German, or whoever else is lending us money, further adding to our humongous deficit.

@LadyC I threw the video up because I figured a few readers had no idea who the heck McCain and Obama were going on and on about in the debate.

I continue to be dismayed with the inclination to seek to destroy any citizen who holds an opinion different from your own. I am sick of eight years of political oppression and divisiveness. This election was supposed to bring a change in "tone" blah blah blah blah, but it looks like we are going to continue the same US vs. THEM that we have had to the past 8 years. We won't be able to solve the economic crisis because people are going to seek to undermine the next president no matter who he is.

So yes Joe was up for discussion, but you didn't want to "discuss" him. You wanted to undermine him because he held an opinion different from your own. I don't assume that he is a political shill because he doesn't come off as "bright" enough to pull that off. My quesiton is, why was he so much of a threat that people spent all day doing whatever they could to smear him.

He asked a question about Taxes. A common question. He made a point that many people on the other side share, the point that people who make more than X dollars are going to have their taxes raised. That wasn't a mortal sin.

In the same way that people tried to destroy Michelle Obama, I find it annoying. I harken back to Michelle's convention speech where she basically said we could disagree without being disagreeable.

Some of you ERRONEOUSLY think that the only path to the White House is being as mean and nasty as Karl Rove. I disagree. In fact I think many of you are forgetting that when this election is over, whoever wins is going to have to govern. Thats going to be kind of hard if we keep up this zero sum politics where those who are on the other side are always dealt with with a sledge hammer.

THis feeding frenzy over Joe the Plumber was an overreaction. He would have been gone by Friday, but now he is going to become yet another "victim" in this campaign to be a rallying cry. Joe has now been made a "symbol" and that's not helpful for Obama seeing as how he's had trouble in the past with "working class" white people like Joe the Plumber.

Its like kicking a kitten. Sure the cat may have scratched and bitten you, but you look like an arse for kicking a kitten. Now Joe the plumber will be around for the rest of the election cycle until somebody finds out he has a DWI or something like that.

@ALL and I am going to keep belaboring the point because I think some of you think that you can behave any old kind of way you want to as long as your side wins. Well this is the most important election of my lifetime not because of who wins, but because of the need for some competent governance after eight years and that will not happen with all this blood in the water.

@Lady C- I didn't mean to imply I didn't believe you I just like to a source before I repeat what I read in comments, to others.

I agree. Joe the plumber is not worthy of any more air or internet time.

It is not just about domestic services, the war is not cheap, China is spreading it's wings, Africa is now a hotspot, Latin American countries require attention, Russia needs watching and the middle east will not go away. That all cost money that has to come from some where. Now unless they plan on returning the United States back to a pre World War II policy of isolation from the rest of the world money is going have to be found and spent.

Cinco, if I implied that you were questioning my integrity, I apologize. I felt that I was overwhelming you with what I had already given you.

Gem2001, "seek to destroy"? I wasn't trying to destroy Sam the Plumber. He did that with the help of John McCain when he chose to make Sam the centerpiece of his argument in the 3rd debate. I only offered a means to getting information that apparently some weren't privy to.

Something I did post that hasn't been borne out yet is that he is related to Keating, but yes Sam is diametrically opposed to what I stand for. Does that mean that I have the power to undermine him? No!

I find this discussion reminiscent of the "don't even discuss Sarah Palin's qualifications" spiel. I keep forgetting that this is your blog. You have a right to post anything you want. And, you have the right to attack anyone else's views that conflict with your own. I get that now.

You don't know me, but you assume you do by saying that "you" (I'm taking that "you" personally and not collectively) "ERRONEOUSLY think that the only path to the White House is being as mean and nasty as Karl Rove."

I offered links to information about Sam, and that makes me "nasty as Karl Rove." If someone goes to any of the links I suggested, they can either disbelieve or believe what they read. At least, they will be informed.

Sam is not the threat you are attempting to make him out to be or want him to be to me. Sam, however, put himself in the limelight. If he is the poster child for "white, working class America," then we are truly lost. He's talking about buying a business he cannot afford and he has a tax lien against him. This is all a matter of public record. No smears here.

It is smearing someone when you say they are destroying the fabric of America by consorting with ACORN to destroy the election process. Or, the person is consorting with homegrown terrorists. These things ARE being said about Obama, but I guess we acolytes can just take it on the chin and go on, because "Joe the Plumber" is the flava of the day.

Gina, I will now go find a Geriatric Blog that caters to my mind set. Good luck, and may God Bless!

Gina, I will now go find a Geriatric Blog that caters to my mind set. - Lady C

Oh look another cry for attention from the comments section. OOOOKAY, I will engage with you just for giggles .....

OH no. I have to add one more former reader to the membership rolls of the WAOD Disgruntled Readers Support Group. *sheds a tear*

Actually, this blog is rather Geriatric, I am hot with the senior set especially the parental unit. They read comments like yours and cast lots to see if I will let it go or rhetorically eviscerate you.

Yes, if you are so feeble minded as to not be able to tolerate someone expressing a different viewpoint, you should cloister yourself in the bosom of ideological balkanization where we are only forced to endure thoughts identical to our own.

Actually Joe the plumber is the flavor of the week as opposed to the flavor of the day now that you went all moonbat crazy on him. You better hope he doesn't become the vaunted "October Surprise"

Notice that McCain was running all out of steam and now he's defending poor wittle joe/sam/chuck the plumber. Not only that but the conversation has been all about TAXES TAXES TAXES and that's never a good topic for Democrats.

The truth is the fact that he has a tax lein, doesn't have a license, is named Sam, but goes by his middle name has nothing to do with his question to a candidate. Obama handled Joe just fine. If anything he shouldn't have addressed Joe at all since McCain stumbled and bumbled his "joe the Plumber anectdote" during the debate. Half the country had no idea who the heck they were talking about.

As far as my spiel about Palin...I WAS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT about not falling into the trap that McCain laid. He wanted YOU you YOU to go after her and reignite the charges of sexism from the primary campaign. You, you, ustedes, managed to reduce expectations so low that somehow her ability to complete sentences during the VP debate became some sort of a victory.

Not only that, my many agreed with my spiel. You see, You you tu, eres, usted, I read blogs and newspapers everyday where men get to go on and on with their Monday morning quarterbacking and political analysis. They offer their opinions on campaign strategy all the time, but you seem to think that I must be denied the same right to engage as they have. I reserve the right to express my own opinion on my own blog. I reserve the right for my opinions to be wrong. If that is offensive to your sense of despotism and totalitarianism, then too bad. Last time I checked this was still the United States of America. This is still my blog and you are free to exit anytime you see fit. oops you already left (RIIIIGHT!)

Thank you for wishing me blessings from God. I wish you all the best as well... except you will never see my well wishes because you are NEVER. EVER. EVER. going to read this blog EVER again.... EVER! No NEVER EVER! You mean it this time! NEVER!

We can't make it through a single election oriented post with some acolyte trying to be gangsta' with their gracious blog hostess. Calm down people. Save your energy for November 4th and 5th. I know I am.

This is such a joke and Joe the plumber and six-pack know that!!