Cross-posted by Faith at Acts of Faith In Love & Life blog
I was deciding whether to write this as two separate posts but I thought of the intersectionality of this latest dire prediction unmarried childlessness for black women at MSNBC with what was a successful effort at combating it should be explored. The Free Your Mind dating event that was held in Los Angeles nearly two weeks ago was well-received!! Look for it to come to a city near you.
The organizer for the seminar, Fleace Weaver was interviewed by NPR .
Fleace Weaver, an L.A. socialite and the organizer of the night’s event, got the idea after noticing that many of her black friends had it all — a career, house, independence — but no man. Weaver is black. She dates men of all colors — black, white, brown — and wants more black women to do the same. “I am an international lover. All right; I am an equal opportunity lover,” Weaver says. “That means I love who is good to me. I don’t want anybody just because they’re a certain color.”
Yes! It bears repeating since a quick peek at the comment section at NPR had some pushback, but nothing compared to the all-out attack by the naysayers and denigrators at another forum that linked to the article. I included it so those that may still question how many are focused on uplifting black women versus those ready to attack any progress are bearing fangs at the mere idea of them making affirming choices! These Internet Ike Turners and outright haters take pleasure in causing confusion and holding women back. It’s imperative that we keep moving forward, try something different and let the miserable hang with their kind.
In the Marriage Eludes High-Achieving Black Women article at MSNBC, some of the usual stats are bandied about. If you’re successful you’ll be less likely to marry or have to marry down blah blah. And be childless.
Michelle Obama may have become an archetypal African-American female success story — law career, strong marriage, happy children — but the reality is often very different for other highly educated black women.
They face a series of challenges in navigating education, career, marriage and child-bearing, dilemmas that often leave them single and childless even when they’d prefer marriage and family, according to a research study recently presented at the American Sociological Society’s annual meeting in San Francisco.
One big reason why these women remained childless is, as one might expect, that they go unmarried, experts say. “Their marriage chances have declined,” Brueckner explained. “This may sound trivial but one reason is that they outnumber men in this education group.” The disparity in education is important because Americans have a strong tendency to marry those with equal levels of education, a trend that has only grown stronger since World War II. “So since there are fewer men with the same education,” Brueckner continued, “you either have to find another group you can marry or you are out of luck. You have nowhere to go.”
Highly educated black men tend to “outmarry” (marry outside race, religion or ethnicity) at a higher rate than black women, researchers say. Think of Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates or Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. Both married white women. (Funny how they chose two men who have displayed they have NO VALUE to us!!)
Black women are either much more reluctant to marry outside their race, or do not have the opportunity to do so. The answer is both, Clarke said. In interviews with a large number of black women, she found that community pressures on black women to marry black men can be more intense than the reverse. Of course if highly educated black women felt free to have children outside of marriage, they could still have a family. When some white women make that choice it is often seen as a kind of liberal empowerment.
But according to Clarke, black women are concerned about looking “ghetto.” Public interpretation of our actions matter for everyone, but especially for black women, Clarke explained. “When it comes to the issue of black women and should or should they not make a choice to have a child alone, these women are very much aware that the decision to do it makes people question their class status. We associate single unwed child bearing with poor African-American women.” Not all women who remain unmarried and childless are unhappy about it. But for a set of sometimes complex social reasons, some high-achieving black women find themselves disappointed.
This article brings up some interesting points. Married black women and apparently these “reluctantly single & childless” achieving black women are NOT having children at the rate of the underclass. That should be considered a seriously alarming trend because of the conditions of the residential areas and the mentality of many who are there. Your best and brightest not only won’t be able to compete, they won’t exist.
Now back to the NPR article which refutes this “you will die alone with cats theory”:
But Weaver argues that Mr. Right doesn’t have to be Mr. Black. “There’s no reason for us to believe we have to be alone. The only thing that’s keeping us from finding someone is that we limit ourselves,” Weaver says.
If black women are set on “black love only,” Weaver says they may be passing up good men. “Some of you all out here have gotten some signals, and you all missed them. Or you got signals, and you all blew him off because he wasn’t chocolate,” Weaver says. “But we’ve got to get over that — unless you want to be home with chocolate cats.”
Indeed the MSNBC article glosses over the indoctrination tactics used to hold black women back to me. It also doesn’t address the intra-black ethnic and cultural differences and how only certain groups of women have a more difficult time deciding to date caliber versus skin color. Which we’ve discussed here at the BWE (black woman empowerment) blogs. There are plenty of men available for those willing to seek them out and it would be most beneficial if articles like this would speak truthfully and tell black women to stop limiting themselves.
We are free to be with whomever we want, to marry or remain single, to become a mother or not, to live anywhere and be treated with the respect and accord bestowed upon any other woman.
77 comments ↓
The comment section at NPR was enough for me. Especially the guy who said that an asian woman told him that black women treat their men worse than any other race of women.
“…glosses over the indoctrination tactics used to hold black women back to me. ..”
Jewish mothers want their daughters to marry a successful Jewish man. I don’t think there is anything unusual about women being socialized to marry someone of their own ethnic group. Most so-called minorities do this.
I don’t have any problem with IR dating but honestly some of the people pushing IR dating seem to push White men as being the savior of Black women. (Black women should be our own saviors). Which they are not. If someone naturally finds themselves in an IR relationship then more power to them. I’m all for it as long as the relationship is a healthy one.
And that I think should be the focus for single Black women, healthy relationships rather than the race of a potential partner. So whether he is Black, White or Other, so be it but just make sure it’s a positive relationship.
As for all of these studies done on us that tell us how bad we are doing; I’m very skeptical about them. The media has for as long as there has been a media in America painted a negative picture of who we are.
So while Black women may indeed have difficulties finding a mate I wonder if it’s easy for anyone and why are we the ones who are painted as lonely losers?
We have to be careful what we believe. Sometimes I think about whether what the media says about us is a chicken and egg which came first situation. Did we become less likely to marry because that’s just how it worked out or did all of these media stories and studies make us believe this was the case and we simply became self-fulfilling prophecies?
Faith, I concur on your take on the msnbc.com article. Their analysis didn’t go far enough or in depth enough, but then I guess they only had so many words/space alloted to them. Tamika Raymond’s piece on huffingtonpost.com (or colorism within the bc) was more in depth.
I also checked out comments to the article made on the NPR site, and there’s a lot of the old tired arguments also being trotted out there. Particularly that educated BW are only single because they think they’re too good for regular BM (i.e., those without professional degrees or a certain income level). Lots of the BW should reach down and help a brotha out through marriage. I find that argument so irritating. Fine for any BW who wants to do that, but BW shouldn’t HAVE to do that. No other woman in the world seems to be expected to do that. Other men seek to achieve in the world to meet their own goals and to be able to compete for the kind of woman they want. If a BM wants a “top drawer” woman, he should have to earn that. Just like women who want a “top drawer” man have to earn it by looking a certain way. Nothing in this life that you get from another person is free.
@Monie What goes on in the Jewish community has NOTHING to do with this post. If you personally don’t support the free agency of black women to choose whomever they wish to mate with you should be a silent observer for the remainder of this conversation.
We are not going to be sidetracked into a debate about this. You are blocking the path that other women may wish to take and I will NOT allow that.
You either support the actions of empowerment even when they go in directions you yourself wouldn’t take based on the needs of individuals or you don’t.
I don’t see what the big problem is. Black women should expand their options and put their needs first just as black men have always done. The only reason that someone would have a problem with that is if they don’t want what’s best for African American women. So, even if YOU don’t agree with IR dating and would never date someone outside your race you should not object to other sisters doing that if that is their choice.
@fdow
Well I’ll tell you like you tell some others responding to you; obviously you stopped reading after the first sentence of my comment. If you had read further you would have understood that I support Black women doing whatever they chose and what is best for us.
Maybe you think conflict is important to a discussion? I don’t know but no where in my comment did I say that I didn’t support the empowerment of Black women.
And I also said:
“If someone naturally finds themselves in an IR relationship then more power to them. I’m all for it as long as the relationship is a healthy one.”
Please explain how that is saying that Black women shouldn’t “mate” with whomever they choose?
And even if I did disagree (which I didn’t) is the comment section of What About Our Daughters? supposed to be the amen choir or a place for healthy conversations?
Despite how much we try to deny it, physical attraction is the base impetus of romantic couplings. Sure, there are myriad factors that play into it, but attraction is the base.
I’m bringing this up because, from what i’ve seen personally, a lack of physical attraction is what’s keeping black women from being receptive to the advances of men of other races.
I don’t think its so much about them not wanting to “betray the race” or even that men of other race don’t find black women to be extremely attractive. Even in college I remember a few of my white teammates being enthralled with a few of the sistas on campus, but scared to approach because they (rightly) felt that they’d get dismissed.
I guess my point is that if you want to address this issue, someone has to pay attention to the giant elephant in the room.
@monie I read for comprehension. I saw your one affirming comment that you threw in as well as your straw man argument about Jews and your “I don’t see why white men are being put forth”.
The bottom line is had YOU bothered to read the post you would have seen that the point was for African-American women in particular to stop letting the indoctrination tactics keep them compliant to being used and make choices. Which they are NOT doing now.
African women and Caribbean women are dating interracially in larger numbers. It is about seeking men of caliber not color. Which was quoted by the founder of the Free Your Mind event.
Despite your protestations to the contrary you were trying to limit choices so you should remain a silent observer since you don’t agree with this effort. Discussions don’t include DISSENT and CHAOS.
You are trying to get black women to stay put and I want them to be free. No underhanded statements that contradict that will be allowed to go UNADDRESSED.
@the champ, that’s an interesting comment coming from a man. I’ve heard plenty of black women say that they don’t find men of other races attractive and I’ll tell you the same thing I tell them, they’re full of it.
I think many black women have a case of sour grapes; they assume, erroneously I might add, that men of other races won’t want them. So they decide to not want them first. How do I know this? Because I’ve spent years actually talking to black women about this issue. Many of them express surprise when they discover that men of other races find them attractive and are interested in decent relationships with them.
Having dated interracially for more than a decade before I married, I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve had ‘meetings in the ladies room’ with black women who’ve approached me to discuss this subject. The conversation is always overwhelmingly positive with most of them asserting that they assumed that a man of other races would only want them for sex. I’m like honey, all men of all races want you for sex. That’s a man thing, not a race thing.
Bottom line is, why do we persist in promoting this bizarre notion that black women are somehow born in this world with a ‘nothing but a brother’ mentality? Isn’t that the craziest sounding mess you’ve ever heard? I understand that people might make a conscious decision to only date within certain groups, but I can assure you that in most cases it is NOT innate. Biologically we are programmed to perpetuate the race…that is HUMAN RACE. There are certain physical markers that women in general find attractive. There are also sociological markers that women in general find attractive and none of this is biologically based.
I don’t see anything wrong if a black woman marries only a black man. I can not call it a taboo or orthodox thoughts.
@thechamp I got sidetracked but wanted to address your comment about black women not being attracted to other men. Yes as Roslyn pointed out that’s hogwash!!
Part of the indoctrination tactic is for certain African-American men to remind women of slavery and the rape that happened as if this is the landscape of what’s going on TODAY.
If anything you can go to any number of websites helmed by various black men who shout very loudly that they find black women unattractive, not marriage material and unwanted.
This message has been internalized so they think no one else wants them. It’s psychological warfare to keep women feeling desperate so they will accept crumbs and allow themselves to be used without questioning it.
We cannot abide by this silently any longer.
***edited to include quotations***
@roslyn holcomb
“I think many black women have a case of sour grapes; they assume, erroneously I might add, that men of other races won’t want them. So they decide to not want them first.”
I see your point. It can see how it would be a form of preemptive protection.
I also think that widely held sexual myths do play a part in this feeling as well. I personally know women, educated women who might be attracted to a non-black man but assume that a white or Asian man wouldn’t be able to satisfy them sexually.
@fdow
“If anything you can go to any number of websites helmed by various black men who shout very loudly that they find black women unattractive, not marriage material and unwanted.”
While I’m not denying this to be true, I don’t think you can dismiss the attraction issue i brought up as just another “indoctrination tactic” by black men.
I mean, even lighter skinned black men are sometimes openly ridiculed by black women as not being or looking “masculine” enough.
In my opinion, this particular issue has more to do with the black community’s infatuation with hyper-heterosexually (which is usually thought to be best embodied by a straight, dark skinned man over 6′ tall) than an intentional ploy to make black women feel unattractive and unwanted.
I think addressing the hyper-heterosexually issue would get more black women to consider other options than just saying they’ve been brainwashed by black men.
@thechamp This has nothing to do with light-skinned black men and again who was the one spreading that nonsense? Darker skinned black men.
You are using your opinion to frame an argument that deflects responsibility from the black men who have engaged in this indoctrination. As well as the ones who silently support it because they all benefit from it.
So I will tell you what I told another commenter. You are at a black woman’s blog discussing issues that pertain to our denigration and potential uplift as changes are made. The truth of the situation has to be acknowledged – ALL OF IT – not just what makes some feel comfortable.
You are not an authority on this subject and since you don’t agree and have made it known are now being disruptive to the process for those of us who know this to be a fact.
Why you assume you have the right to tell others what are and aren’t the issues of importance on a blog for black women is a problem. Perhaps you are not used to being given parameters but you have them now. So if you wish to participate you need to respect the women reading this blog.
I’m a black man. I have 3 older sisters, and they’ve all dated mostly non-black men. One of them is married to a white man, and they have a child together.
They’d all much rather be with black men primarily – in the same innate way that most whites would likely initially seek out white partners. It’s just the natural order of things. Not necessarily because they’ve been “programmed.” Although I understand your point.
But, I’d also say that, in my sisters, as well as other black women I know, there’s a recognition and familiarity of a shared history and experience (especially amongst the educated) that most would likely prefer in a mate, that might also be keeping them from seeking partners outside our group.
My sisters kept themselves open to other groups of men. But I remember hearing about their dates with non-black men (especially white men) whom they felt just didn’t “get it” when discussing subjects pertaining to race relations in this country, and all over the world – not the way a comparable black man might; white privilege, white male privilege, the present-day ramifications of centuries-old physical and psychological oppression of minority groups, etc, etc, etc… Essentially, issues that affected them directly, every day, but that their white partners just couldn’t quite fully grasp – which eventually led to other problems within each relationship.
And, in those moments, a kind of frustration and maybe even longing develops in them, and they end up ambivalent about relationships with those otherwise “good” non-black men, because what feels like a rather salient piece of understanding is missing – that shared “black experience,” irrespective of gender.
Now, I want to reiterate that these are all things that I’ve been told by black women (family and friends) I know who’ve dated non-black men.
And I’d say the same thing about black men – at least, the black men that I know, myself included.
All that said… as a black man, I have absolutely no qualms about black women being with non-black men. As someone suggested above, having a healthy, happy relationship is obviously key, no matter what color the person’s skin is. And that goes with every pairing, and in every direction.
One thing that doesn’t sit well with me is when someone who’s dating outside of their race does so while demonizing the opposite sex within their race (no matter what race or gender) – lumping an entire group together, unfairly – and using that as justification for why they are dating outside their race. I’ve seen men do it; and I’ve seen women do it. Either way, it doesn’t do anyone any good.
@fdow
“You are using your opinion to frame an argument that deflects responsibility from the black men who have engaged in this indoctrination. As well as the ones who silently support it because they all benefit from it.”
I acknowledge that we (black men) haven’t been the best champions of black women, and, by extension, black children. This is an inarguable fact.
My point is that there are other issues at play, and I don’t know how beneficial it is for us to ignore how much the concept of hyper-heterosexuality influences us when it comes to who we tend to choose as romantic partners and why.
I don’t see how expressing a difference in opinion is “disruptive to the process”. There’s no hidden agendas here. I’m not attempting to let black men off the hook or minimize the issues facing black women. I just brought up a relevant issue that relates to the topic and directly pertains to your denigration and potential uplift.
Lastly…
“The truth of the situation has to be acknowledged – ALL OF IT – not just what makes some feel comfortable.”
…I agree 100 percent.
That argument that black women are innately less attracted to lighter skinned men than to darker skinned men is such warmed-over nonsense. If that were truly the case, explain black women’s love/lust for men who look like Ben Jealous or Wentworth Miller, or even Christopher Williams and Gregory Abbott back in the day (i.e., men who look more white than black but who identify as black)? Yet, if those men identified as white or something else non-black, BW suddenly claim they have no attraction to them. Complete hooey. That is social indoctrination and BC PC.
“There are plenty of men available for those willing to seek them out and it would be most beneficial if articles like this would speak truthfully and tell black women to stop limiting themselves.”
Faith, the powers that be in the white community and black absolutely under NO circumstances wish to see growing numbers of BW marrying interracially.
Especially to WM and most especially to well to do, influential, powerful, and successful WM. Those with something on the ball.
A few of us here and their don’t “rock the boat” too much. But, if our numbers continue to grow, it’s considered a problem.
And that’s why there’s a virtual black out when it comes to WM/BW couples in the public eye. Mover and shaker types.
That’s why Evia’s blog and others are so successful, popular, and hated by many.
Because a picture says a thousand words. Many folks – black, white, and other had NO idea that well known household name type WM are married to sista’s.
The powers that be want to KEEP it that way too.
White society (and black) does NOT want the word out about this population.
Because what we’re exposed to enough, becomes normalized in the public imagination. Nobody in America wants WM/BW couples and our children to be normalized and therefor fully accepted on a grand scale.
Now the “wigger” types are one thing (that’s not viewed as much of a loss), but the preppy white collar professional ones that white folks envision THEIR daughters and granddaughters marrying is a WHOLE ‘nother matter.
This is where things can get “dicey”.
I married well and when you do that you help to secure your children’s future.
A legacy, money, property, etc… is passed down.
Most white folks don’t want that type of transfer to take place.
So we will NEVER hear the TRUTH that there is no shortage of good men, wonderful husbands and future fathers.
It is TABOO to “go there” as they say.
A firestorm erupts at the mere mention of the suggestion that BW look for the best mate regardless of “race”.
So there will continue to be the same tired, and untruthful, analysis and commentary of what ales BW in the dating and mating market.
How about doing a seminar around central Florida?
@ Zoopath…What does most Asian women know personally about bw other than the sterotypical? This aw must have really been into bm and that is where she got her information.
Roslyn Holcomb; fdow: You ladies are living in denial.
If I had a dollar for every time I heard or overheard a Black woman talk about a pink penis with a look ranging between trepidation and disgust, I could at least take a trip to TJ Maxx to buy a pair of discounted Nine West shoes. In other words, it’s not something that is regularly discussed, but it is commonly enough discussed that I can’t imagine someone actually denying that a strong preference for Black men and a relative distaste for non-Black men exists among Black women.
“Nobody in America wants WM/BW couples and our children to be normalized and therefor fully accepted on a grand scale.”
Now I misspoke here obviously. What I should have said was the majority of Americans don’t wish WM/BW couples and families normalized and fully accepted.
Obviously those of us in IR marriages/relationships – with and without children – (and those who love and support us) wish to be thought of as everyone else and not unusual/controversial/”special”.
And we certainly count. It’s just that we don’t make up the majority.
Great post. I am of Caribbean descent, born in England, raised in Canada, now living in the States.
Statistics show that African and Caribbean females marry out 30% in the UK. I’m not sure of the stats for African and Caribbean females in Canada, but know several Black Canadian females who have married non-Black men.
I’m not sure why African American females are so caught up with “only a Black man”. I understand the need to believe that you will meet your dark prince and ride off into the sunset. But, you should be open to all quality men.
There are good men out there, and I can see no reason to restrict yourself to Black men, when they are not doing the same. Although I am married to a wonderful Black man, if I find myself single again, there will be no restrictions on who I date as far as race is concerned.
Good to see so many African American women speaking out about this issue — it’s very important for Black women not to feel loyalty to those who have no such loyalty to them. Waiting for a non-existent Black man for your entire life is a waste of time and kind of pathetic.
@thechamp I allowed your comment through and will state for the last time that your insistence of putting forth your theories that you admittedly don’t know are valid as adding value to this is why you need to stop trying to force your opinions as facts. Even after being asked to be move on you still must get the last word and let your voice be heard as an authority. That doesn’t do anything to help the current situation facing black women.
@jen Ah where would be without the Internet Ike Turners and Naysayers coming here to discourage our progress? You can live your life the way you want and we will live ours as we please and encourage as many AA women in the USA to MATE OUT OR DIE OUT. That’s the bottom line. Find someone who can you can sustain a THRIVING relationship with where you flourish and if you have children can move on to provide generational wealth or live a life of struggle, hardships and “getting by”.
@shadowandact I find it interesting you think it’s the “natural order”. I find it to be based on your social circles, residential areas and outlook. You are also not acknowledging the fact that AA women in all-black settings have been specifically told to only look for black males as partners, to give a brotha a chance, to uphold the race. Meanwhile the typical black males is not told this and is allowed to be a rolling stone and roam free. Either way the message is getting out how ridiculous it is because so many blacks are soooo offended by the mere idea you can tell the message is being dismantled and they don’t like it.
“I can’t imagine someone actually denying that a strong preference for Black men and a relative distaste for non-Black men exists among Black women.”
I can’t imagine someone actually denying that preferences are strongly dictated by CULTURE. And that in African-American culture BW showing open interest in non BM is a STRONGLY frowned upon taboo.
And that in African-American culture BM showing an open interest in non BW is accepted and often encouraged.
I also can’t believe that most people don’t realize that MOST African-American BW have been carefully socialized to demean and masculinize themselves if it boosts a BM’s self-worth in the process.
Such as associating darkness- when a BW HERSELF is dark – with masculinity.
That’s what these crude African-American BW fixated on the complexion of WM’s private parts are actually doing.
If darkness is considered more “masculine” in these more often than not black male identified BW’s minds, what does that say about themselves and THEIR dark skin? And most importantly what does it say about their level of femininity compared to WW and other light-skinned women?
Often, AA BW specifically spout off at the mouth like indoctrinated puppets (which many unfortunately are) without realizing the FULL (and unpleasant) implications of their statements.
If I had a dollar for every AA BW who shot herself (and her sisters) in the FOOT with her mouth I’d be ROLLING in dough.
Thankfully, the tide IS slowing turning for smart BW and IMPORTANT things like family orientation, income level, decency, etc… not “race” and complexion are being considered when it comes to men.
After all these are the things that matter in this world.
NON AA BW – who make up the majority on this planet – realize this simple fact.
And that’s why they’re not suffering from a 70% single rate and over 80% OOW birthrate like AA black women are. Their priorities are correct and they haven’t been indoctrinated by their cultures to shoot themselves in the foot.
A recommended article pertaining to this issue can be found at the below link…
http://muslimbushido.blogspot.com/2009/06/open-letter-to-african-american-women.html
Growing up I was always the black girl who like white boys. Most of my guy friends were white and till this day most of my celebrity crushes are white men. Like many black women I felt the pressure from my family to marry a black men. My dad openly discusses he hatred for white men.
I date both, but primarily white men. I heard a couple of my friends say they can’t get with a pink penis. Many of them have one horrible relationship with one black men after another, but won’t date a white or Asian guy because they look corny and boring. I tell them they are being silly. I’m sure black men don’t say the same thing about women of other races vagina or their way of life. These same friends of mine catch a fit when we see attractive black men with not so attractive women of other races. Sidenote: I find it funny how all these sites tell black women to get in shape when looking for a man, but I rarely see fat white or hispanic women without a mate.
As someone who just finishe one graduate degree and starting another this month, I can tell you I rarely see a black man in my class. But I’m not looking for one either. Black women have to come to grip that marriage with a black man may not be a viable option
LAWD have mercy. The IR discussion finally made it on to a WAOD post. With expected results. Perhaps it is my old age, but I’ve just reached a point in life where I don’t really care how other people find what they seek in a relationship. UNless its abusive or dangerous, if you like it, I love it. Life is too short for me to worry about how other people get the companionship they deserve. The idea of anyone else discussing anyone else’s relationship choices hearkens back to slavery in a different way.
We don’t own each other. i don’t own Black men, they don’t own me. If they want to marry a white, asian, or hispanic woman, that is their choice. They have the right to prefer whoever they prefer and I have the option likewise to do the same. IF by my “preferences” I insure that I never get married, THAT WAS MY CHOICE. Anytime Black women want to, they can choose to broaden their horizons, if they don’t then stay single. I would say the same thing to Black women who live in cities where the Black male to female ratio is 1:19. Again, if you foolishly think you are going to beat the odds, then that’s your choice. The job market is the same way, if you choose to sit in Detroit unemployed and refuse to consider the possibility of relocating, then that is your option, live with it. If however you decide to relocate somewhere where there are more jobs, then again, that’s your choice. I don’t need to remind the unemployed person that they could have moved. Why bother.
To the troll that brought up the hue of sex organ (ignorant one), you have to be what? 18? 16? 12? What you said is insulting to men, BLACK MEN IN PARTICULAR. You mean to tell me the only reason Black women prefer Black men is the color of their penile regions? Troll, please!
But yes, I find it odd than in 2009, we’re still having this discussion.
I don’t think its a message thats “getting out” I think its a reality check for Black women, if you want to get married and you are limiting yourself to a group of men that think they are as rare as a precious diamond ( Black college educated, no kids, no record with a job), then prepare to be ring-less. There hasn’t been some national “dating out” movement. I think a lot of these women are making these choices independently and then they find support online. Or women have been contemplating the issue and they find affirmation online. To the hardliners, let them be hardliners as long as they leave you in peace. Slavery is over. I’m not going to debate with an idiot that thinks they have an ownership interest in my person, just obliterate them should they try to claim that non-existent property interest. We don’t negotiate with human traffikers do we? No, we throw them in jail and move alone. Any Black person arguing that I don’t have the freedom to make decision regarding the most personal aspects of my life believes in slavery. I don’t care what they think.
Ok I don’t want to have to go in and start editing the After 5 talk about male appendages. So let’s just end that now.
Thank you Fdow excellent posts.I’d like to say also that it has been my experience that my aunt not only married a man outside her race but she also had children by a dbr unavailable black man who this white man also accepted loved and provided for as his own.He also does the same for their grandchildren.I know that no situation is typical and I most certainly am not trying to say that All men will accept a black woman with children.Or any woman with children for that matter.What I am saying is that you never know what good things are in store for you unless you look at ALL the possibilities.There are billions of people in this world. In my opinion no woman who does’nt want to be alone forever should accept the fact that they are deemed unworthy by some to love, and stay single cause my aunt had three kids and still got a GOOD man.They seem very happy he has always been a loving person.When she met him she had less than he had.He really added to her life.My aunt is a hardworking, educated, loving person who has always provided for herself and children even before she met him.Also without the help of my cousin’s father.But she still sought out a man that’d add to her and her children’s life and that’s exactly what she got and is what she deserves.She really is a good person.
@fdow, yeah I know its stupid, but sadly even in 2009 I heard some of my black girlfriends(even the college educated ones say it). My jaw dropped when they said to me. A lot of black women stil buy into the black man sexual prowess myth.
“Any Black person arguing that I don’t have the freedom to make decision regarding the most personal aspects of my life believes in slavery.” –gem2001
To take that point a little further: any person who thinks they have a right to give their input on this subject is out of order and out of line. What adult would let a stranger’s input determine how to choose a mate and a father for their children?
The twists and turns in this conversation are amazing. Thankfully, some of us are brave.
Sorry to bring up the “Male Appendage Color Hue Argument for Mate Selection(MACHAMS). But it was so stupid and so often repeated in this argument, I couldn’t let the glaring ignorance and SIMPLE-ness pass me by.
I mean REAL TALK, its not the kind of thing to stare at or meditate on.Not like shoulders or arm muscles, legs, butts, teeth, hairline, hygeine, aftershave, excessively long back hair or any of the other things that may or may not physically attract you to a man. To take it a step further, if the point of selecting a mate is to be a provider, protector, a compainion and a helpmate once you pass the minimum threshold of “attractivness” what role dose a man’s physical appearance play in the relationship. UNLIKE men, women will “compensate” for physical attractiveness. He might not “look” a certain way, but the way he acts seals the deal.
Everybody knows at least 10 guys that the first time you looked at them, you didn’t even notice them, but then they grew on you versus, the FIONE guy that has “Cad” written all over him.
Which is why I find this whole “you can only marry” someone who “looks” like you argument stupid. Sure you have to be “attracted” to your mate, but “attraction” has more than a physical component with women.
So if (MACHAMS) is your sole argument against dating out, its the lamest reason of all.
i support people dating whomever they wish, regardless of race. i also think that the combination of racism and the beauty myth makes dating and romance more complicated ground for black women. Just opening your mind to men of other races isn’t necessarily going to resolve the challenges black women face regarding less potential partners and
society’s rejection of black womanhood, particularly for black women with clearly black features and hair. Plus, dating, romance and marriage are complicated for all women in a patriarchy-even the ones with the most privilege-and these traditions need to be questioned, challenged and re-imagined anyway. It’s like the underlying assumption is that if we open our minds to men of other races we’ll have options, and that fulfilling our desire to get married and have children will leave us more fulfilled and satisfied with life. I’ve lived this from all sides and can say-it ain’t necessarily so. I was raised in an interracial step-family with a white step-father and I have dated across the spectrum (white southerners, to working class brothers, to African elites) and waited a long time before I left my free agent single life and married (to a black man). Many of my peers growing up were of interracial families/step-families as well. It’s complicated–there is no shangri-la for women within dating/marriage/long-term companionship, particularly for black women. I think while we each make our way, it could help if we collectively address underlying factors contributing to our conundrum -such as the longstanding defamation of black women and their exclusion from an increasingly narrow definition of beauty, and the ways in which we are used as fodder so that others can feel beautiful, desirable, at our expense/exclusion. (And yes, I know there’s a need to address the underlying factors contributing to less available black men-but that’s for a different forum). If we don’t address the pan-cultural defamation and exclusion of black women from depictions and understandings of desirable womanhood (which needs to be deconstructed and reinvented as well..), I think this will only get worse for our daughters. and marrying outside of your race may not even be an option for most black women given the numbers (more women than men overall, across races) and how race, racism and beauty norms play into dating/romance.
@nathalie That was a very long message when you could have just said you see numerous obstacles and black women can’t possibly overcome them. Since you are suppsedly a female and married – as it would happen to be it’s to a black man and not experiencing dating difficulties why aren’t you offering solutions instead of trying to beat down others with the “impossible” stick? I reject your premise and since you don’t see success for black women your presence is presenting a road block and unnecessary. We can do “bad” all by ourselves.
All I can say is that this discussion is way overdue.
When I freed my mind to consider dating outside my race, I automatically increased my chances of getting a good man, not a good Black man.
And the color of his penis is and should be a NON-ISSUE. Anyone discussing the color of sex organs as opposed to whether or not the guy is a prince or an asshole, already have issues that need not be discussed on this blog or anywhere else.
One of my best friends is married to a white guy, and I am godmother to both their sons. She has been with him for 20 years, and I’ve seen them go through their ups and downs, but never, ever, did I see her husband walk off and leave her or their sons. He has always provided for her nice homes, good cars to drive and overall treats her like a queen.
In fact, they’ve been together so long, you cannot imagiine one without the other. They are truly soulmates and became “AS ONE”.
Years ago, she suggested to me that I consider dating outside my race – I’m sorry I blew her off at the time, but after I came back from Europe and in recent years, while I’m surprised that men of other races find me attractive, I have to remind myself that DBR brothers almost indoctrinated my ass into thinking I only me their standards of beauty.
To which I now cry “bullshyt” because if there is such a “Standard”, then it should be applied equally and when I point this out to brothas, they can’t answer me.
All of which to say, I’ve broaden my horizons. And I’m not adverse to becoming a “Cougar”, either, cause I find guys my age acting too damned decrepit and needing Viagra before they hit 50, which is the prime of life and they’re already acting like they got one foot in the grave.
Good post, Faith, as always. Speak the TRUTH!
@Roslyn
“I’m like honey, all men of all races want you for sex. That’s a man thing, not a race thing.”
Bingo. LOL.
@fdow: I didn’t say I have not experienced dating difficulties–that’s your assumption. I am saying that in terms of group solutions, we may need to work together to address obstacles such as the denigration of our image and beauty-a significant aspect of why many sisters may have less options within and outside our race (while an interracial partnership is an individual solution). i am also saying that interracial relationships and marriages may not be as simple of a solution as they may seem from the outside having been raised in and among them. As a society we need to re-examine the marriage/nuclear family “brass ring” thing–most marriages are ending in divorce, across races. I am not trying to beat others down-I am reflecting on what I am observing on this topic and thinking on how to contribute to that anti-defamation, healing and re-invention of marriage/family social constructions, and interested in hearing if/how others are working on it/thinking about it. My body of work is still in process.
@Nathalie
“Just opening your mind to men of other races isn’t necessarily going to resolve the challenges black women face regarding less potential partners and
society’s rejection of black womanhood, particularly for black women with clearly black features and hair. ”
??? I don’t think any ONE thing is going to resolve the challenges black women face regarding finding acceptable partners. But, an article about opening your mind to more possibilities can only be seen as a good thing. I’m a black woman that could definitely only be mistaken for a black woman (clearly black features and hair). I married a white man who gave and still gives me every indication that I’m beautiful.
As much as I loved him at the time I said yes, I almost didn’t. Why? Because of the disdain of my father (white man got his foot on the black man’s neck), some friends, fear, and anything else willing to clog up my thinking. I still have an aunt that supposedly, “can never forgive me?” after years of marriage and kids to boot.
But, I loved him and still do. It may seem silly, but having friends willing to support me meant a lot. I had dated black men before, but I had a “no sex” before marriage clause. I met many boyfriend’s mothers, but after awhile their friends told them they had a right to expect sex in a relationship. My current husband, who just happened to be white, was the first to tell me how much he respected me for it and that he was willing to wait. And, he did, for almost two years until we married. That’s my story, I don’t know anyone else’s.
It hasn’t always been easy, but I wouldn’t trade it.
I’m thankful for the sistas in my life that said, we’re here regardless AND girl, whatever works we love you. So, I say, yeah…expand your options.
The champ said: “I’m bringing this up because, from what i’ve seen personally, a lack of physical attraction is what’s keeping black women from being receptive to the advances of men of other races.”
@champ
It may seem like a trite point but, when you go the ebook sites the interracial romance novels involving BW/WM are ranked among the best sellers. I think there’s lots of interest in dating out but very little follow through.
I also have to put to rest the notion that IR dating and marriage is more difficult for BW with stereotypical black features, hair, shapes, and skin-tones.
It’s NOT. That’s a lie promoted by DBRBM to keep dark-skinned BW as an unmarried, useable, sexual toilet population.
Beat their self-esteem to a pulp, most already know their not considered prizes in the “bc”, THEN tell them in subtle and blatant ways WM and other non “brothas”(SMH) ALSO don’t want your a**.
It is beyond cruel.
I’m hear to say non damaged men outside the “community” DO want BW.
Those BW who need to improve their self-image due to prior abuse in the “community” should do so because a man of ANY “race” including a WM can detect low self-esteem.
And it’s low self-esteem and lack of self-worth that’s puts ANY woman in a potential negative situation relationship wise.
My husbands prior girlfriend before meeting me was Ugandan. And she was BLUE black.
Bjorn told me once that he hates that others probably think the only reason why he fell in love with me is because I’m considered an “acceptable”/”crossover” type of BW. I’m light-skinned, hazel eyed and slim with a small behind.
Beauty is beauty PERIOD to non color-struck and non racist men in the global village. It’s not color coded and hierarchical like it is in the “bc”.
Non damaged men outside of the “bc” love us from the darkest to the lightest and everything in between. Short hair, long hair, “good hair” or “bad” (SMH at this slavery mentality) as long as it looks good on us and we’re happy they’re cool with it.
Which is refreshing and liberating to say the least.
@Felecia
Amen
@trish: Good point. I write interracial e-books and spend a lot of time talking to other black writers as well. They are huge sellers. I have no doubt that plenty of them are being read by black women who themselves are not in interracial relationships.
@Felicia: I don’t know where this one comes from. My picture is all over the web and as you can see, I am very much a typical black woman with a very nappy hair. I’m 45 years old and started dating IR, almost exclusively with white men when I was 25. Met my husband when I was 32 and married at 35. I’ve dated probably a couple dozen white men.
@Jen: How many years have you been in an IR relationship discussing this with black women? I’ve been doing it for 20 years. I’ve been online for 13 years discussing IRs with black women. I don’t have time for it anymore, but I used to spend a lot of time on hair boards and other places where black women congregated. Sure I got plenty of ‘nothing but a black man’ talk, but I’ve since gotten emails from a lot of those women saying they’ve changed their minds. Black women are in many cases walking wounded, their minds and self-esteem bruised and battered by the nonsense many of us encounter. They find it hard to believe, especially those with more Afrocentric features, that men of other races find them attractive. When they discover this, it’s like opening Pandora’s box. I’ve seen it too many times to believe otherwise.
All this ‘pink penis’ crap is nothing but bravado. Black women are big on bravado, in case you haven’t noticed. We’re also stupid enough to claim ‘we don’t need a man,’ and ‘I can raise a child by myself.’ Yep, same bravado because they think that’s the position they’ll be in, so they might as well embrace it. If black women weren’t interested in interracial relationships my books and the books of dozens of authors like me wouldn’t be selling like hotcakes. So, I’m not the one living in denial, and I’ve got the bank balance and the emails to show for it.
This is not a new discussion. We’ve been talking about this issue since the days of a number of our sisters who made “the choice”:
Pearl Bailey
Dorothy Dandridge
Eartha Kitt
Lena Horne
Diana Ross
Donna Summer
Alice Walker
Diahann Carroll
Whoppi Goldberg
During the late 1960s and 1970s, there were many interracial relationships between Black women and White men. A good number did not make it to marriage, however, but the “Tom and Helen Willis” coupling from “The Jeffersons” television series, was not unusual in my world.
Personally, I am really tired of hearing everybody and their mother say, “Most marriages end in divorce these days” and “Two-parent nuclear households don’t work.”
This is such DEFEATIST THINKING! We have to be very careful about what types of thoughts we allow into our minds. If you put garbage in by focusing on so many negative things, guess what you will get?! Garbage OUT!
My younger sister, at the ripe old age of 20, is always talking about divorce, divorce, divorce. I am looking at her like, “What are you talking about? Didn’t we come from a LOVING, TWO-PARENT household? Aren’t our parents still together and in love after 27 years?!”
Divorce does happen. But the thing to focus on is: A successful marriage is possible and they happen everyday!
No one said it is EASY, but many people these days are very foolish when it comes to entering into a marriage from the get go. If you enter into a life-long partnership with the wrong person, unprepared, and selfish – it will not work. Just like if you go to a job you hate with a bad attitude everyday! This is why people must really THINK and EVALUATE who they choose to marry.
Moreover, as we have seen, having a whole bunch of single-parent households has by and large NOT been working. Children need two parents and a parent needs a help-mate. Whether you are heterosexual or LGBT. Being a parent is not easy! You need someone to help share the load.
Again, let’s stop with this defeatist thinking. Do not put garbage in, because you will get garbage out. Moreover, it’s so tired … and played out. I feel a yawn coming on …
“In other words, it’s not something that is regularly discussed, but it is commonly enough discussed that I can’t imagine someone actually denying that a strong preference for Black men and a relative distaste for non-Black men exists among Black women.”
I hear this at the hairdressers nowadays. I don’t understand it because had Tom Selleck, Don Johnson, or Robert Redford made approaches to me ages ago, I would have been caught.
Something changed in the younger generation of Black women. In my day, it was all about light, bright or EVEN White. I remember being in love with all the members of the band, “Switch.” We respected Dr. King, but Huey Newton, Malcolm and Muhammad Ali were considered “FINE.”
Then later, it became about the darker brothers. Michael Jordan. Wesley Snipes. Even Denzel is not considered light.
Why did our standards for Black men change so much?
@fdow
“I find it interesting you think it’s the “natural order”. I find it to be based on your social circles, residential areas and outlook.”
Hence, what I mean by “natural order.” Our pairings don’t happen spontaneously. Maybe it’s just a case of semantics here, but we’re saying the same thing.
“You are also not acknowledging the fact that AA women in all-black settings have been specifically told to only look for black males as partners, to give a brotha a chance, to uphold the race.”
It’s not my experience with the black women that I know. I’m not hearing that from them. Regardless, I wasn’t “not acknowledging” anything. My intent with my comment was to present other reasons that the black women I know are giving me for not aggressively seeking non-black mates – not to dismiss the one you’ve given.
“Meanwhile the typical black males is not told this and is allowed to be a rolling stone and roam free.”
Again, that’s not my experience, nor the experience of many of the black men I know. All I can do is speak from my own personal experience. And I’m telling you what my experience is. I’m not dismissing yours. Just presenting mine. I’m just averse to making generalizations about groups of people like that.
But as I already stated in my first comment, I have zero qualms about IR dating of any kind. I have sisters who are with non-black men. Myself and my brothers are all with black women. So, I really am with you on this, and aren’t here to nullify your intent.
Honestly, I cease to comprehend why interracial dating continues to be a hot topic amongst Black women. Along with hair and skin color, IR is one sure way to bring a lot of Black women out to share their points of view.
We have no allegiance – spoken or unspoken – to be with Black men, as if to do so will save them. Black men need to save themselves from themselves. Black women also need to see themselves as individuals, free of the rules and expectations the Black community places on us. I think that once Black women become truly comfortable in their own skin – figuratively and literally – this topic will cease to have the level of importance we place on it.
Thanks to all for this discussion, this has been a most interesting conversation, to say the least!
I can’t help but think of actresses Halle Berry, Alfe Woodward, Whoopi Goldberg, etc. Especially Halle Berry, now that she’s had a baby. She was with a “brother” baseball player, I forget his name, but he was abusive; singer Eric Bonet repeatedly cheated on her. Then she met a 10 years younger White man who simply adores her. True, her mom’s White and her father’s Black, but when she had her baby, it made me stop and think. What’s also interesting about Halle, I read an interview once where she said her mother taught her, “you’re a Black girl with a White mother and a Black father.” That was deep.
Someone earlier made an interesting point about White men finding brown-skinned or dark-skinned sisters attractive. A few years ago, a White male friend of mine had a crush on me, but never approached me; he told a Black couple, friends of mine he thought I was the absolute bomb! I was very surprised; I’m a tall, brown-skinned sister with a very short natural, wear African clothes 95 % of the time and I am a die-hard Pan-Africanist, community organizer and very out-spoken. Yeah, some of the local “down for the struggle” brothers have made it clear I was too brown for them; my hair too short and my dresses too long (no, I don’t have a kente cloth mini skirt), too out-spoken, too well read, intelligent, traveled, kept a job therefore I’m not dependent on a man, etc. So, yeah, I’m older now and I realize FOR SOME INDIVIDUALS, regardless of race, racism and White supremacy has not totally wiped out the humanity of every single person in this society. So, yeah, I’ve learned my lesson, I no longer rule out a non-African man, but now a Jimmy Smits Latino brother would be alright with me right about now . . .
FWIW Jimmy Smits is half Latino. His mother is Puerto Rican (and most Puerto Rican’s Like Dominican’s have some degree of African Ancestry) and his father is a tall white Dutchman from Surinam. Smits is a common name in Holland.
It’s especially hard if you are an attractive BW.
guys automatically assume a beautiful woman is taken so they don’t even bother asking her out now add the fact that she is black and there you go.
Since our families, churches, social services industries, and education professionals are all dominated by Black women, what Black men are in place to discourage women from seeking love outside of the race?
Also, since Black men are accused of serially seeking out women of other races, are these same men additionally responsible from holding Black women back from interracial relationships.
I am trying to reconcile how Black men can mass abandon Black women, and then enforce restrictive racial dating choices upon them simultaneously.
Simple…It’s just like a petulant 2yo…They don’t want to play with the toy, yet no one else can have it…
They’re sleepy, yet don’t wanna take a nap…
You offer them either ‘Cheerios’ or oatmeal, and they ask for ice cream
And most of us know how to handle a 2yo *WINK*
“…..Also, since Black men are accused of serially seeking out women of other races, are these same men additionally responsible from holding Black women back from interracial relationships.
I am trying to reconcile how Black men can mass abandon Black women, and then enforce restrictive racial dating choices upon them simultaneously.”
@ZeBra”Since our families, churches, social services industries, and education professionals are all dominated by Black women, what Black men are in place to discourage women from seeking love outside of the race?”
My family was dominated by my father (black man). He definitely discourage marrying anyone but a black man. My pastor was also a black man. He encouraged “black men” as the backbone of “black families”.
I’ve never been attached to social services and I’m unsure as to how it fits into the equation.
My educational background included both men and women, but I never consulted with them on dating issues anyway.
But as a black woman, I had black grandfathers, a black father, black uncles, black males as friends, black male coworkers, and plenty of black people in general willing to offer an opinion.
@ZeBra
“Also, since Black men are accused of serially seeking out women of other races, are these same men additionally responsible from holding Black women back from interracial relationships.”
I think the emphasis was that black males have appeared to have more flexibility in their choice of mates, while black women seem to get less consideration when they choose males of a different race. This is not to say that black men don’t also catch some flack from dating someone of a different ethnicity.
@ZeBra “I am trying to reconcile how Black men can mass abandon Black women, and then enforce restrictive racial dating choices upon them simultaneously.”
The only way I could imagine that you couldn’t reconcile this issue would be if you really didn’t want to engage the conversation intellectually in the first place.
Surely, you didn’t think we meant “Black Male A met and married white girl B and then told Black Female C, she wasn’t allowed to do the same.
I think the above posts were more than clear and you’re just wanting an opportunity to begin a “poor, misunderstood, black man” conversation. If that’s the case, I think we’ve heard every sob story.
But, if you want, create a blog and call it “What about our poor misunderstood, black men and we’ll stop by sometimes.
@ Zebra
Well Zebra, Let me recount some personal experiences for you. I remember clearly older male relatives chatting incessantly about how beautiful and handsome they were, how stunning their dark skin was and how women couldn’t resist them. how they were perfection of the male form.
I remember watching a male relative stand in front of a mirror in our front parlor and adjusting his suit collar…all the while going on and on about how no one wanted the women of our family, how they couldn’t find a man…but he had scores of women and how fortunate he was. I was maybe 8 or 9 at the time…but the convo happened often. The women of my family were college educated, the men by and large were not.
At one point the women in my family were discussing having a social gathering at a large local sporting venue which was largely frequeneted by whites. I remember an older male relative discouraging them from holding their ongoing social event at this venue…because according to him..the only thing you would meet at this place was “….some old nasty white boy”.
He hounded them until they chose a “black” venue…where of course there few to no men….or men like my relatives who could gleefully recount how they were the only man among 50 women.
The one thing I learned from growing up and watching my older male relatives is BM ENJOY the disparity in numbers between genders in the black community.
When my uncles found out I was dating WM, their heads nearly exploded…but what of the years of listening to their escapades with hundreds of women…and none married…Hmmmmmmm.
For younger generations of BM who are educated, those in their 20s now, they just see themselves as individuals not tied to any racial group or identity really. Well that is what the well educated young BM I know seem to feel.
BW will have to do the same or else they will be left alone adrift in a sea of misery.
@ Sis. Felicia, thanks for the reminder on Jimmy Smits background. Now that f-i-n-e brother, actor Benjamin Bratt also comes to mind. His mom’s Pervian and she taught her son some good solid, progressive politics. Going up, she taught him about the Native American struggle, the take over of Alcatraz back in the 1970s, etc.
@ Sis. ZeBra, what you are trying to reconcile, how Black men can do what they want and try to restrict our choices, well it’s called arrogant male priviledge, though most brothers don’t think they have such in a racist, classist society, but as many here have already noted, just take a look at our community and the evidence is there to see, i.e, crime in general, crimes and disrespect towards women and children, senseless murders, drug and weapons crimes, etc.
Wooow! It always annoys me when the topic of interracial dating comes up among black people b/c the conversation is always concentrated on the topic of “dating white.”
First: let’s drop the American “black and white people are the only people that exist” mentality. That would help a lot.
Second: I am a 24 year-old black female who dates intra- and interracially, but has recently been turned off from the idea of dating white men. Men (of all races) tend to sexualize women of different races. Black men sexualize Latinas, Asians, Indians, etc. Asians, Latinos, and Desis tend to sexualize white women. White men sexualize women of different races also and I’ve notice that over the years the trend has drifted from Asians, to Latinas, to Indians, and now the new trend is black women. (And the more “exotic” black the better.)
Since this new wave hit, I’ve been approached by many white men, but I notice a difference in the tone. Instead of feeling like a beautiful woman they met, I feel like a hot black girl they want to conquer. They always compare me to some “hot” Kenyan/Brazilian/Ethiopian they met once and have often felt the need to tell me that __ country has the most beautiful black women in the world…and I look like I could be from there. (And I’m guessing this is supposed to be some sort of compliment.)
My last straw was when I dated a very close college friend who, once we started dating, would often make me feel like his black girlfriend and a token to help boost his “liberal” resume.
Meh!
But, interestingly enough, my most freeing relationships were with mix-race and those who were neither black nor white. Being “other” in a black-white country where neither the blacks or whites really knew what to expect of them, they didn’t play as much into the stereotypes of what I was supposed to be like b/c of my race. Instead I was just me. A beautiful girl they know. And like. (Of course that wasn’t all. I’ve met a few that play into that “black people are like this…” nonsense) But overall it was a better experience.
And just something I wanted to share.
I know that in my family two of my brothers married white women and both had beef with me marrying a white man. With all the usual blah, blah, blah about it. Of course, I ignored them, but then I’ve been ignoring them since I was out of diapers.
As long as a black woman – or any woman for that matter – is concentrating purely on quality and how that INDIVIDUAL man (regardless of what “race”/ethnicity/nationality he belongs to) is treating her and coming correct in a respectful, decent matter, NO man, not White men, Black men, Biracial men, Asian men, Indian men, Pacific Islander men, Australian Aboriginal men, Native-American men, Hispanic men, Arabic & Persian men, (have I left anyone out?LOL) need to be off the list of possible love interests.
Possible future husbands and fathers.
The only thing that should turn an intelligent woman off is inappropriate and disrespectful behavior.
If BW TRULY wish to be judged as individuals in the dating and mating market by men of all colors/”races”, then these same BW must be willing to do the same for men.
When women – especially AA BW – take ANY men totally out of consideration based purely on the superficial (and “race” IS superficial because it tells one NOTHING of what lies within the heart and soul. It tells nothing about the quality of a person) it’s a dumb move.
I wanted to contribute my thoughts to this discussion. As a WM who sometimes dates interracially, I wanted to say that yes, BW are certainly beautiful and desired. I’ve had some very good relationships with BW and will continue to date them in the future.
I have two more comments that I wanted to say about this topic. First, I’ve encountered a lot of BW who are not interested in dating WM. There was a recent university study where they concluded that BW are least likely to date outside their race. WM are probably more open to dating BW than many BW are willing to realize.
Second, I wanted to say the only real “in-your-face” hostility that I’ve ever encountered when dating a BW has been from BM. I’ve had a couple of bad encounters where BM became verbally hostile and downright nasty when they saw me out in public with a BW. I’ve never experienced the same type of in-your-face hostility from Asians, whites, etc.
I’m hoping that discussing these issues will encourage more BW to broaden their horizons when it comes to dating.
Jimmy Smits’ mother is Puerto Rican. (Puerto Ricans, individuals, are pretty much a black/white mixed-race people of varying degrees: When I was a teenager, one of my closest friends was Puerto Rican who had blonde hair and blue-green eyes and white skin. Some are white, some are black, but most are various shades of brown with the various hair textures that includes, too.) His father is from Suriname. (Where the heck is that?)
Smits identifies as Puerto Rican. He even “went so far” as to name his daughter, Taina. The native people of the island (who were all killed off by the Columbus and his fellow Spaniard explorers) were called “Taino.”
Last time I checked, Smits was in a relationship (since the early 90s, I think) with the actress, Wanda DeJesus, who is Puerto Rican, too–although, she has more of the black in her. Check her out in the movie, “Illegal Tender,” which is not a good movie, but it will show you the full racial/colour range of PRs, if you are not familiar with that aspect of the people from that island.
I think that we need to also change the media’s attitudes about IRR. This is disturbing:
http://www.watchingvh1.com/vh1-being-boycotted-for-portrayal-of-black-women/
VH1 Being Boycotted for Portrayal of Black Women
A boycott has been launched against VH1 by Black Media News for the station’s portrayal of black women in its CelebReality shows. The boycott stems from a story leaked by an alleged employee of the company stating that VH1 passed on a new series entitled “Interracial Love” in which professional black women would look for a love a different race. The employee claimed the show was passed on because VH1 execs said that the public only wants to see “ghetto” acting black people. EURweb.com has obtained this letter from Black Media News concerning the boycott:
To whom it may concern,
There is a boycott that has taken a life of its own against the VH1 Network. We here at Black Media News have been watching the support around this boycott. VH1 had made racist comments about black women and why they only cast shows that stereotype black women as ghetto. The story was leaked on the Tom Joyner morning show and was also reported on Black Press Radio. The following comments were made by an employee of VH1. We feel these statements are worse than Don Imus due to the fact that they are not talking about just 12 black women they are talking about an entire race of black women. VH1 shows their views in their shows of black women. They have been type casting with black women only in ghetto roles. This is a very racist view and we ask for the continued support of this boycott. There are links below of the story black press radio did on this boycott and an editorial.
To the present day, polygamy continues to be a viable solution to some of the social ills of modern societies. The communal obligations that the Qur’an mentions in association with the permission of polygamy are more visible at present in some Western societies than anywhere else in the world. For example, In the United States today, there is a severe gender/genocide crisis in the African “American” community. One out of every twenty young black males may die before reaching the age of 21. For those between 20 and 35 years of age, homicide is the leading cause of death. Besides, many young black males are unemployed (there are at least 1 million more black women employed than black men!) illiterate, homosexual, in jail, or on dope. To make matters even worse the evil and satanic practice called the down-low or dl where married or single black men have sex with each other with out telling their wife or girlfriend contributing to the A.I.D.S epidemic that has already ravaged the black community. Many black men who go to the joint get “ran up in” [raped] and spend many years in a homosexual relationship, these men also find and meet each other in “church” without fear and condemnation!. When the few that do get out are released from prison, they attempt to have a relationship with a woman and do not tell her of his homosexual lifestyle and in many cases giving her the deadly A.I.D.S virus. Many black women/men die of this yearly. Some observers of the crisis of man-sharing in the African American community strongly recommend consensual polygamy as a temporary answer to the shortage of black males until more comprehensive reforms in the American society at large are undertaken. By consensual polygamy they mean a polygamous relationship that is sanctioned by the community and to which all the parties involved have agreed, as opposed to the usually secret man-sharing which is detrimental both to the wife and to the community in general. The problem of man-sharing in the African “American” community was the topic of a panel discussion held at Temple University in Philadelphia on January 27, 1993. Some of the speakers recommended polygamy as one potential remedy for the crisis. They also suggested that polygamy should not be banned by law (while allowing same sex marriage), particularly in a society that tolerates prostitution, Greco/roman lesbianism/homosexuality and mistresses. The comment of one woman from the audience that African Americans needed to learn from Africa (which includes Islam) where polygamy was responsibly practiced elicited enthusiastic applause.
“I think the above posts were more than clear and you’re just wanting an opportunity to begin a “poor, misunderstood, black man” conversation. If that’s the case, I think we’ve heard every sob story.
But, if you want, create a blog and call it “What about our poor misunderstood, black men and we’ll stop by sometimes.”
I don’t know what black male “sob stories” has to do with wondering how largely “absent” Black men, are also restricting Black women from interracial relationships,
Perhaps the barriers to interracial Black female relationships
are much more self-imposed that you are willing to admit.
As it has been noted in earlier posts, successful Black women have been marrying interracially for many years with positive outcomes.
Suriname is a Dutch-speaking country in South America, located in between English-speaking Guyana and French-speaking Guyane.
When women – especially AA BW – take ANY men totally out of consideration based purely on the superficial (and “race” IS superficial because it tells one NOTHING of what lies within the heart and soul. It tells nothing about the quality of a person) it’s a dumb move.
- Adding my unwanted 2cents, I am black man that has been happily married to a black woman for 18 years now. Raising two black girls, who I hope will find and marry a black man not so unlike there father…
Maybe I am just to old or out of step now a days but, I will always consider my “race” a wounder full source of pride for me. I do not in anyway consider it superficial.
In fact the reason I never myself have been interested in anyway, in dating anything but, a black woman is due to the shared experiences, history, and perspective that we have in common as black people.
Maybe that makes me out of step but, I wouldn’t bet on it, this is more of a post racial country but, not so much that something so dear to our people, our ancestors, our shared history and journey has now become “superficial”.
I myself, could not even imagine coming home after a typical day at work to anything but, a black woman. There is just to many things we have in common, to many things we have the same outlook, view, and perspective about.
I know many black woman feel the same and maybe that can be harm full in there dating options but, I certainly can understand it. I mean there is so much more to me than the career I have.
I would have so much more in common with someone who has traveled in the same circles as I traveled or who has a similar family history as I have, or has grown up in a similar environment as I have. Any number of things and it would not mean a thing to me whether or not they were professional or not, or had a college degree or not.
I think a lot of black people are a bit like myself, I mean I know I enjoy work but, I can’t wait to leave those folk at work where they are, at work.
@tusk This may be true, but only 31 % of Black children are being born inside the bounds of marriage and 70% or so give or take a percentage point of Black professional women are on track never to get married. I don’t think people are saying that people shouldn’t date Black men, but there are something like a million more available Black women than Black men so somebody is going to get left out in this equation.
I just can’t argue with those dismal numbers.
Sounds like I will be in for it, when it comes to my daughters once they are adult woman.
Gem2001 said…
…”I don’t think people are saying that people shouldn’t date Black men,”…
What I’m saying is BW should only date, marry, and procreate with men regardless of color/”race” who love them, accept them, appreciate them, and are willing to honor them with marriage. Men who are willing to defend and protect their women and raise and educate their children so that they can be successful in life.
Any husband and father – regardless of his “race” – who truly loves his daughters want’s who’s BEST for them. Who’s going to be the best husband and provider. The best father. Whatever background he comes from.
That’s love.
What father who cared about his daughter would want her in the situation that many AA black women are in?
A 70% single rate, growing and frighteningly high rates of AIDS from “man sharing” with guys who’ve been in and out of the prison system and/or are on the DL, the highest rate of producing OOW children they’re left with raising alone, etc…
What father who cared about his daughters would want her in such negative statistics?
The real deal is black girls and women are still be socialized to focus solely on black males BUT black boys and men are certainly NOT being socialized to focus solely on black females.
Far from it.
BM date and marry out at least 3 times the rate BW do.
SO, this black love thing on a GRAND scale will simply not work.
Because there is not an equal amount of interest from both genders.
Plus, “race” and a shared history alone is not the thing that keeps a marriage together and strong. If that were the case, black marriages should be some of the strongest but they’re not.
2 out of every 3 black marriages end in divorce. The highest divorce rates and the lowest marriage rates belong to AA black folks.
So… if a qualified, family oriented, well employed, marriage minded Black man is interested in a sista great. Just like if a qualified, family oriented, well employed, marriage minded White man, Asian man, Hispanic man, etc… is interested in a sista great.
One “racial” type is not “better” or “worse” than another.
Whichever one steps up to the plate, and comes correct FIRST is the one an intelligent BW should choose.
Because unlike men, women have biological time clocks to think about.
My two-cents…
Hey Tusk,
My unrequested .02, I would say start very early cementing friendships with other black family men like yourself, chances are better that they will have passed good family values down to their sons. As only about 20-30% of those guys exist, it seems rare to me…but since you seem to be one of those rare birds you would be closer to the bulls eye.
Peace
P.S. East Indian and Asian families do it all the time. I know sometimes it is unwanted but those few intact AA that still exist will have to something to survive.
Understanding the stats and what faces my daughters is one thing but, understanding as a commited man to his children and what can work for them is something else.
All that being said, no one in there right mind can and shall lay out for me, what it takes for “me” to be a good father to my own daughters. Or be able to sit back and judge how much I “truly love” them. Trust me, they are fully aware what a good father is, and I fit that build with them. That is one of the wounderfull thing about being a parent, we get to love, raise, and as best we can guide our on children.
I choose to attempt to raise my children to cheerist and be mindfull in a positive way of there race, me and there mother are on the same page with that.
One thing I can do is be a good, example in what to look for in a good black man. One thing my wife can do is be a good example of a woman who came from a meager background and excelled in her life and profession.
The power is with in themselves, they will not think or act, or respond as victims.
Divorce rates being what they are in the black community is one thing, those shared experiences and back grounds, have taken us a long way and got us through it all as a people.
No appologies from me for loving my blackness, not all that interested in working inside, the sun is not all that hot I will stay in the field.
Hey knockoutchick, good advice…
They are very active in social groups now, “Young Achievers” and other organizations with more than a few positive black young men in it.
They both have interest and plan to attend HBCU’s my youngest Spellman college my oldest Howard Univ. or the college there mother, aunts and grand mother graduated from FAMU.
But, in all of that if they still do not end up married, my biggest concern is that they are happy and healthy and productive.
We’re all sharing our points of view here and believe we have the best interests of BW in general in mind.
I know I do and can’t speak for anyone but myself.
There are countless BW who have regrets today because they were trying to please others outside of themselves. Trying to live up to the image that others had for them.
In 2009 almost 2010 there is no reason for any young black women to grow old alone and childless (if she wishes to be married and have children) out of some misguided belief that they must limit themselves to populations that statistically proven they have no intention on limiting themselves to them.
One black identified biracial man (Benjamin Todd Jealouse, son of a white man and black woman who is the president and CEO of the NAACP) who is married to a beautiful sister and who is father to a darling little black daughter, has some heartfelt words of wisdom concerning wanting the best for his little Princess.
“The love I hold for my precocious daughter defies words. I already know that when my baby starts dating, no man will be good enough for her. I’m not one of those dads who will hold her to some racially imposed requirement. I want her to choose whoever makes her happy, complements her soul, and respects her dignity as a woman. If that person happens not to be black, so be it.
But I do want her to have a choice of African-American men. The disproportionate number of black men swept into the prison system threatens that hope. ”
I tend to not believe that the high number of BM in prison has anything to do with the extremely low percentage of BM proposing marriage to BW these days.
But I DO give him credit for being open minded and secure enough to accept whoever his daughter chooses to bring home one day minus the racially imposed requirement.
Commentary: For the sake of my daughter
http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/06/22/what.matters.jealous.naacp.daughter/
AA Black women need to be armed with as much truthful up to date information regarding their prospects for the future as possible.
What they choose to do with this information is their business.
But, when and if things don’t go “according to plan” at a later date, they can’t claim they didn’t know.
Because the research is being conducted now and the findings are not pretty for BW who limit themselves.
Knowledge is power. But BW can only be empowered if they’re aware of the latest research.
FEWER HIGHLY EDUCATED BLACK WOMEN GETTING MARRIED, HAVING KIDS.
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/lifestyle/fewer-highly-educated-black-women-getting-married-having-kids_100229724.html
“The study has shown that black women born after 1950 were twice as likely as white women to never have married by age 45, and twice as likely to be divorced, widowed or separated.
The gap in the proportion of black and white highly educated women living with a spouse has grown over the decades, increasing from 9 percent in the 1970s to 21 percent in 2000-2007.
“Highly educated black women have increasingly fewer options when it comes to potential mates. (Not true. This is only the case when they restrict themselves solely to BM) They are less likely than black men to marry outside their race, and, compared to whites and black men, they are least likely to marry a college-educated spouse,” Brueckner said.”
Well it is what it is, I have a friend who’s daughter married a white guy, who treat them well.
We have talked about it and she is actually his step daughter, he is no longer even married to her mother but, still he rents his home out to her and her husband.
She considers him her father, far more so than her biological father. But, anyway we have discussed it and neither one of us can blame her for making the choice she made, just based on her options and her having her own mind.
Now, I myself do not believe the disparity in BM and BW not getting married is primarily due to the lack of interest of BM toward BW. I think there are countless factors and I as a BM put some of that ownership on BM. We have to step up in so many ways, all of us will not be highly educated but, a lot more of us could be worthy and more suitable for marriage.
The point is, IR marriages betwene WM and BM will always happen but, when ever I see it now a days I don’t have any ill will toward the couple by any measure. I as a Black man just think of it as another opportunity lost by us.
1) Sociology has taught us that there is a connection between high birth rate and varying rates of poverty.
2) The MSNBC was merely suggesting interracial dating as an option for higher-achieving women. Taking that leap into dating another race or ethnicity is not as easy for some.
3) You have to give credit to black women for their efforts in educational and corporate achievement, especially in the last 10 years. Some of this may have been out of necessity due to not having the the patience to wait on their male partner. I applaud them.
Anyone interested in IR dating, you can sign up for free at http://www.interracial-attraction.com
To give you some background, I am a 30-something white male married to a Haitian woman.
Did any of you know that Wentworth Miller aka Michael Schofield from the show called prison break is in fact bi-racial his mother is white and his father is black but when you see him you suspect that he’s white not bi-racial.
American black women BETTER start dating IR or get left in the dust – which has already happened! I believe in black on black love but not too many black men believe in it. They are dating nonblack women over here and running off to Thailand or Rio first chance they get to get away from black American women. A female can only take so much dissing before she gets hip and moves on herself. BW can either date IR or seriously considering becoming a lesbian or a eunuch.
Do black women also stop and look at the fact that their mothers may play a part in them being single. Too many black women are being ill-advised by their mothers and are constantly subjected to harsh criticism and ridicule so many believe they’ll never find a good man which is the fact that black mothers engrain negative things into their heads about anything from how they won’t get a man to being a bad parent. It’s the sad and abusive ways effect so many black women that many eventually give up hope of marriage and family and remain single and childless.