This is Faith blog host of Acts of Faith In Love & Life reporting for blogging duty! I’ve got my Wellies on so let’s get to it shall we? This is being cross-posted at my blog as well.
A few people didn’t agree with my last post where I was critical of the Raising Him Alone organization. This is no dig at single mothers. I am all for providing training classes, parenting classes, financial classes, job skills, whatever the mother needs. Again just as with my posts about DBR (damaged beyond repair)-ism last week I got a lot of heat from people who felt uncomfortable with the subject matter. I pose my blog posts as conversations. These are conversations we NEED to be having but so many would prefer to avoid them. If we NEVER discuss the challenging and yes, painful aspects of pathologies we are doomed to repeat them.
The OOW (out of wedlock) birth rate has increased by 300% across the board since the 1970’s but is highest for black women at around 80%. Other groups of women are struggling with this as well but as we all know there’s that added heaping of difficulty with blacks. Whatever people are doing it is NOT working and behavior MUST be modified. No one wants to admit the Anything Goes philosophy is literally killing black women (highest HIV rates) and lowering their quality of life across the board. Instead obfuscation tactics have been deployed. Trust me I understand. I used to get upset watching Suze Orman talk about being prepared financially for the pending economic downturn. She mentioned it 3.5 years ago. What she said made perfect sense but I didn’t want to believe what she was saying because it would mean that I’d have to make changes.
I am not a single mother. I am not a mother at all. That was a conscious choice on my part and I have guarded my reproductive choices fiercely. That does not in any way invalidate my observations. I could’ve easily gotten pregnant any number of times. Trust me the women in my family are typically very fertile. I’m the eldest of six! I decided I would not have any children unless and until I was happily married to a man who provided for and protected me. I didn’t always use that language specifically but that’s what I’ve always intended.
Being married alone is not enough though. Lots of women are married to men who cheat on them or are perpetually unemployed. So it is all about CALIBER. We have to be very discerning in how we evaluate a potential mate. We may have to use judgment other than our own as well. That single decision of who we chose to mate with will alter the course of our entire life. It can be the difference between life and death. Do you want you and your children living with more hardships than necessary?
Some women don’t want children at all. Some want children under very specific situations. Sometimes life happens and we have to live with the choices we’ve already made. We can still move forward but ONLY if we are willing to do a stone-cold accurate assessment of where we stand. The truth must be spoken. For example I know I could be married right now but if I want to attract the highest caliber mate I have to make some adjustments in my life. So until and unless I do that work single is what I shall remain, but I don’t have a lot of time to be playing around. If you are already a single or never-married woman with child(ren) you have some work to do. Unless you want to remain single or never-married, Raising Him Alone.
Well that’s not my wish for you and I’d hope you’d want more for yourself. My only wish is that all the young girls out there are able to make informed decisions fully invested in what they’re doing before their lives are altered forever. Nobody is warning them, helping them or giving them adequate facts before hand and they end up suffering unnecessarily. Keeping up appearances is more important! Does this mean I have to share personal information? Not happening!!!
Actually I will share this. Both my maternal grandmother and mother had their first children at the age of 18. I had decided at the age of eight that I was moving to NYC to attend college and proudly told my family so. My having a child as a teenager was not part of my life’s plan so I’d already decided I would not be engaging in any sexual activity before graduating high school. I was going to move away and live my own life. Oh I was curious as any normally developed female would be but I drew a line in the sand and stated it publicly. I had no idea how radical that is for the average black girl whose life has increasingly become dodging mortar shells and white phosphorus assaults. Of course for many families this is the norm and expected, but for others girls the cycle of abandonment, financial struggle and exploitation is the norm.
I’ll use an example.
I know a single mother who’s now in her 30’s. She got pregnant at 14. She was being raised by a recently widowed mother. They had been financially unprepared for the death. The woman’s mother had to take a job where she worked 12 hour shifts, some of them overnight. The woman was left alone as a young girl with even younger siblings. That young girl was allowed to have a boyfriend who was 17. The young girl’s mother did not say one word to her about evaluating the quality of this boy, about making a decision about exercising her budding sexuality and definitely received no advice about using birth control. When the young girl found out she was pregnant, the boy promptly abandoned her and their child for the next five years.
By the time I’d heard she’d been allowed to have a boyfriend and my immediate thought was, get this girl to Planned Parenthood no questions asked, it was already too late. I discussed all of the options available to her and she chose to bring the pregnancy to term and raise her child. The more I thought about it the more I grew to see how the mother’s neglect was contemptible and deliberate. Who lets their 14 y.o date and be left alone unsupervised with a boy who was almost 18? The idea that a mother would allow her own child to suffer is a harsh one isn’t it?
She has friends who have been through similar situations who have gone on to have more children with different men and remain unmarried as well. There’s this resigned acceptance that marriage is for other women. That’s a lie. Black women are being told their identity is all about how many people they sacrifice for, how many children they have and to wait for the black man to “come home”. LIES. LIES. LIES.
I know other women who’ve had four or more children with different men hoping that, This time this one will be it. They’re usually involved with a black male. Who has other children. Who has not committed to them. Who is an inadequate father. Oh he may try and may be sincere in his efforts, but is still not able to be fully functioning. Or he’s the guy got that one woman pregnant, moved on and married someone else. Lots of conflicts ensue from some unresolved anger aboutthat. As long as that woman that was left behind is still holding on she cannot move forward.
Black women have been self-sacrificing for far too long. Many have come to expect their life of struggle is also normal because it’s been reinforced and accepted by other people in their “community”. If you tell them the majority of other women of other groups, even other black women of different ethnicities do NOT live their lives like that, no one wants to believe this. It is ABNORMAL for 80% of black women to have out of wedlock births. The mentality has to change.
Black women are still being indoctrinated by and accepting the lie of the mythical “black community”. We are being set up to perpetuate a cycle where we will never be free to live their own lives on our own terms. Everything is couched in this “community” talk. There IS no community. There are exceptions. There are individuals who will succeed but not the collective. Just like the Moynihan Report stated. A community is a place of safety and refuge. You are respected. Your community member looks out for you and yours. You don’t get gunned down in a community. You don’t go hungry in a community. You don’t allow for 50% of your females to be raped or molested in a community. You certainly don’t pretend none of this isn’t happening!
Organizations like Raising Him Alone say they’re giving help to single black female mothers and even if they do offer something, ultimately they are like a cancer. They are STILL perpetuating the lie. If they are not actively promoting a strong, intact, healthy family structure they are just using these mothers to create some ad hoc snake oil salesman pipe dream organization. Where are they getting their funding?
It’s not okay for women to raise children ALONE. Even when you dear reader are the mother! Even when you are the most fabulous creature that ever walked the earth. Children want parents. They notice when something’s missing even if they never say anything. Other people think throwing mass amounts of capital will solve this. If people had housing, jobs and discretionary income everything would be solved. Tried and failed I’m afraid.
This isn’t about demonizing the mother who’s been left with the responsibility if she decides to keep the child after birth. What about (y)our daughters? I don’t see RHA offering a seminar on how to avoid a male predator as we know most young black girls are being impregnated by GROWN MEN who are usually at LEAST 10 years older. Are the going to send a group of the “good black men” to police these war zones where the women live while Raising Him Alone? Are they going to set up a pilot program for adoption and mental health services for these abandoned children?
I have not yet discussed the foster care system. The article I’ve linked to has a list of rather disheartening stats and questions of their own. They don’t understand the high percentage of abuse, the disproportionality of black children and other things they don’t consider to be the NORM. The majority of children are the products of black fathers who’ve also abandoned their children. I say fathers because the mothers are not all black. So this RHA group has an audience to address of black women only because many black women decided to stick it out – alone. Of course the abortion rate is 30% for black women but these are often women who already have at least one child.
I can’t imagine how many more fatherless children would be around. I’m not condoning or vilifying, but when things are this out of control I do NOT understand why only CERTAIN aspects of this MAJOR PROBLEM is being addressed and all the others are being ignored? How is reinforcing the dysfunction with group-think going to CHANGE anything? Do people prefer to feel justified in their decisions or do they want to adapt the correct thinking necessary to not only survive but thrive?
I have also not talked about child development and many other areas I am not equipped to discuss but if you look at the STATS it’s bad news for children in this scenario. That doesn’t mean it’s hopeless, but people have got to assess these situations with their eyes wide open! Those who are their primary care givers are going to have their hands full to say the least. We’ve discussed many of these situations here at WAOD. One of my readers reminded me of this casethat resulted in the premature death of Dr. Betty Shabazz.
Now I am sorry if this pains some of you reading all of this but you cannot afford to invest in rainbows and unicorns. You will need to double, no quadruple your efforts. You will need all the extra hands you can get to give that child that you love a fighting chance at a healthy life. That child that will grow to adulthood is not shown statistically speaking to have a good chance at a quality life. No it is not fair, but life isn’t fair. So do what you’ve gotta go but don’t stick your head in the sand or claim you’re choices are being attacked because you don’t want to face reality. That Moynihan Report was very clear in assessing the weakened family structure as the cause for all of the dysfunction and chaos. There is your answer.
Rebuild the family structure and most of these problems are solved.
That does not mean rebuilding it exclusively with two black parents in mind. It should be the best partners whatever their race or ethnicity (or orientation). This is why Marriage Equality is being fought for so hard by the LGBT leadership. Most of us already have the right to marry and we throw it away like it’s nothing. Don’t justify women in raising their children alone when they can be supported in creating intact families. That doesn’t necessarily mean it has to be with the man who left or presents no value. You can teach sex education but you cannot teach someone to feel loved when they know they’ve been rejected by the one that helped create them or the ones that look like them.
Certainly there is something very deviant in these black males that have this mass dysfunction on such a grand scale. Why are black females not connecting the dots? The “black community” is a lie. You know that phrase. “He’s just not that into you.” The majority of black men are NOT into black women. Otherwise they wouldn’t be gone. They wouldn’t be ridiculing the darker-skinned women. They wouldn’t be flaunting their plantation fantasies in your face. They wouldn’t be telling you that what you want is asking for too much. They wouldn’t make fun of your African features. They wouldn’t be leeching you for every resources you have. Oh sure they want to keep a few of us set aside to use but they’re not honoring or cherishing black women the way we saw with our parents or grandparents. Even then it was sometimes questionable.
So the continued answer to that question is to tell as many black girls as possible to expand their options. The RHA organization is not seeking to empower young girls when by definition they are focused on mothers and sons. Yet, it’s the girls who will get pregnant. Makes you wonder if they really have progress in mind. These girls need to be taught to seek out a wide variety of friends and experiences. To know that they are going to be rejected by some of these DBRs and be grateful. To not let themselves be used by men who despise them. To take the red pill and leave the Matrix. Date differently, mate differently and GET OUT. Rebuild the family structure with MEN (others as applicable) who are ABLE & EAGER to do so.
These DBR black men despise themselves and their blackness. They carry the psychic shame of being the descendants of slaves and don’t want anything to do with black women. They are not hiding the contempt any more. You see it by their actions. Remove the lie and it becomes obvious. There is no community, only a means of trying to tie black women together on a sinking boat.
I’m certain many wish to dispute this but when your life isn’t so bad and you are the exception you don’t see the other side. There are far too many black girls who are in much worse scenarios and nobody is warning them others are keeping that “black community” lie going at their expense. To accept we’ve been lied to means we’d have to take action. Maintaining the illusion becomes more important than accepting reality or finding a better way. I cannot and will not abide with perpetuating this lie. It is a matter of life and death for far too many of us. We have no LIFE until we are actually LIVING not simply SURVIVING. That “black community” lie is a noose around the neck of every black woman who stays behind. It’s being tightened a little every day and slowly taking your last breath. LEAVE and DON’T LOOK BACK.
Black women are considered some of the most beautiful women in the world – by non black men. It is time to get out from under the “black community” lie, stop propping up other people and get yours. The numbers are such that this is about survival of the fittest, the willing, the able. Many will be left behind or choose to remain where they are. So be it. For those who want something else there is a better way and it WILL look completely different than what you imagined. That’s okay. If you had already known this many of you would have sought it out already. That’s what this post is for. To open a door. It’s your choice to see what’s on the other side. Your life and the life your (future) child(ren) depends on it.
145 comments ↓
Good article. I completely agree most of your points.
I feel the need to point out that the fact that your sisters, aunts etc became pregnant easily does not translate into yourself becoming pregnant easily. There are a few fertility issues which do run in families but by and large fertilty is very individual. The ONLY way you can know if you are fertile is to become pregnant; even tests for fertility are not foolproof, at most they show POTENTIAL for pregnancy but actually becoming pregnant & carrying a child to full term can only be known after the fact. Too many women assume it will be a walk in the park only to discover that despite being perfectly healthy with everything in working order, they cannot become pregnant. Often for no apparent cause. Just wanted to point that out. Other peoples fertility does not guarantee yours. Its not like its infective or something.
L: That’s really besides the point right now, but thanks. I’m not TRYING to get pregnant nor am I overly concerned about it. I don’t have this burning desire to reproduce biologically. Of course there are exceptions but trust me when I say I have like 45 cousins and they have kids. I can’t even keep up with all of them. Very.Fertile.Family
“Black women have been self-sacrificing for far too long. Many have come to expect their life of struggle is also normal because it’s been reinforced and accepted by other people in their “community”. If you tell them the majority of other women of other groups, even other black women of different ethnicities do NOT live their lives like that, no one wants to believe this. It is ABNORMAL for 80% of black women to have out of wedlock births. The mentality has to change.”
…I am going on 23 with know kids at all, it was a decision I made long time ago to wait until I was married to have sex, but it’s crazy how almost 60% of the females I graduated with from high school are, I am not knocking them but basically it’s time for a change! They have to realize the decisions they make to have kids does not just effect them it effects everyone around them also.
There have been so many posts in the black blogosphere talking about OOW lately. Supposedly 80% now? I say too late to turn back the hands of time, even educated women in their 20s and 30s are doing the OOW thing now. And not everyone wants to wait to their 40th birthday to start having kids.
Hopefully they can protect their kids from the same outcome that the teen OOW mothers often face. Hopefully their education and class will protect them.
And what is this obsession with IR in the blogsphere, I am not against it but you have to be honest, some BW aren’t attracted to other races, most WM who date BW are usually AT LEAST 10 years older. Some ethnic groups of Hispanics are more more compatible with blacks than others. And are these non black men so willing to marry BW? Is the divorce rate higher or lower?
Great Post!!! This is definitely one that I will send around.
I also have to strongly agree with L. Fertility of others (including family) does not guarantee or hinder ours. Women who are certain that they want biological children need to think about that. Are social stigmas worth the death of a dream? The only ones who can answer that are the individual women.
And what is this obsession with IR in the blogsphere, I am not against it but you have to be honest, some BW aren’t attracted to other races, most WM who date BW are usually AT LEAST 10 years older. Some ethnic groups of Hispanics are more more compatible with blacks than others. And are these non black men so willing to marry BW? Is the divorce rate higher or lower?
@naima I think the reason you see more discussions about IR is because the blogosphere is the only form of media where those who are passionate about IR have a voice. You wouldn’t think the discussions of IR in the blogosphere were “obsessive” if those discussions were common in print, television and radio. So it isn’t surprising that a marginalized group of people would flock to the only medium where their voices can be heard.
I also think to a certain extent that marriage choice is a hallmark of free society. So you will often see women who are passionate about IR on blogs about the empowerment of Black women because to go against the social mores of the Black community by dating and marrying “out” you have got to be pretty liberated. I’ve learned a great deal from IRR bloggers about Black women’s liberation in general and consider them to be online pioneers in Black women’s empowerment blogging.
I think as a strategy, however, that couching marriage choice in terms of hard cold facts is more effective than comingling the argument with one about the failures of Black men. Not because there isn’t some truth to the argument, but because of the instant wall of high resistence triggered by a need to protect and defend Black men.
A more effective argument would be. Statistics say that the marriage rate among Black men is X. Statistics say that the marriage rate among X men is Y. Statistically speaking a Black woman over the age of 35 with an advanced degree has a higher chance of being struck by a meteorite than marrying a Black man. therefore Science tell us that to increase the possibility of marriage, a Black woman should consider widening her dating pool, racially, culturally, geographically, and denominationally. See how I made that argument without triggering Black Men’s Defense Syndrome (BBMDS)?
But then again, I have the luxury of making that kind of argument because I am not under siege. If I had to endure what Black women in IR had to deal with, I’d probably lean more towards argument A.
PS. Don’t knock older men. I actually think the perfect age spread is to marry someone years older than I am and I have a 15 year cap…which can be moved
. I just read an article about a Congressman who is near 50 marrying a Clinton staffer in her 30s. White women don’t have a problem with a 10 year gap. That comment about the 10 year age difference makes me think you are still in your 20s.
@Naima, I keep hearing that it’s only older white men who are marrying black women, but I don’t see any actual evidence of that. My husband and I are the same age, actually I’m six months older. (Yeah, he likes the cachet of having a cougar! -lol-) Most of the people I know who are in IR marriages are within five years in either direction, much like monoracial couples.
I’m not sure about the divorce rate. Do you mean higher or lower than national averages, or higher/lower than monoracial? I don’t know of any credible statistical sources, so can’t comment on the issue. Though, I can point out that divorce rates are high across the board, so I’m not sure how this is germane. Again, I can tell you that I’ve been with my husband for twelve years, married for almost ten.
As for whether groups are willing to marry black women, fortunately we’re not trying to marry groups. It’s about one individual meeting another individual not groups.
Oh, and I’m not passionate about IRs. I’m passionate about black women who want husbands to have every opportunity to do so. I’m also passionate about black children being born into an optimal environment, that is with TWO loving, nurturing and supportive parents. It’s been my experience that widening one’s dating options to remove racial barriers increases the chance of one finding that optimal mate. I have as yet to find any other means of increasing black women’s chances, if you have some, please recommend them. As for not finding other races attractive, I still think that’s odd, but oh well.
I enjoy the IR blogs run by black women. More and more black women are starting to date out, not because they can’t find a black man, but they are understanding race shouldn’t be the only factor in choosing a mate. I’m over 35 and divorced. My first husband was black, but I am open to marry a man of another race.
Too many black woman are still under the ‘black women can survive anything’ spell. From what I see from my black female relatives and friends, I’m started to think they love struggling. I live in Atlanta and I swear it is the baby mama capital of the US. I am a divorced mom of two and going back to school to get another graduate degree, the last thing on my mind is sex. But I swear some of these women have babies like it’s an Olympic Sport. I don’t see how they can afford them.
I also think to a certain extent that marriage choice is a hallmark of free society. So you will often see women who are passionate about IR on blogs about the empowerment of Black women because to go against the social mores of the Black community by dating and marrying “out” you have got to be pretty liberated. I’ve learned a great deal from IRR bloggers about Black women’s liberation in general and consider them to be online pioneers in Black women’s empowerment blogging.
I think as a strategy, however, that couching marriage choice in terms of hard cold facts is more effective than comingling the argument with one about the failures of Black men….
Thanks for vote of confidence Gina. I am still struggling to position IR discussion in an ‘acceptable’ framework lol!
But maybe it was never meant to be in one, come to think of it, because all the frameworks out there seem to be inadequate for the needs of bw.
Article 11 of the Human Rights Act states that ‘Everyone has the right to freedom of association with others’, but since bw seem to be in a unique position of folks running away from associating with them (well apparently and according to some of us), I am thinking that we might have to write in for an amendment.
We need to have it included, that it is unlawful for folk to not want to associate with others as a result of race and gender. That would for sure address our situation. But it would have to work both ways I guess….
Anyway thats what you get when you let white folks write the conventions from their perspective. lol!(/humour off
Statistics say that the marriage rate among Black men is X. Statistics say that the marriage rate among X men is Y. Statistically speaking a Black woman over the age of 35 with an advanced degree has a higher chance of being struck by a meteorite than marrying a Black man
Is it really that bad? See I have trouble telling whether its the women who actually don’t want to be married as well as the men, or just the men. I know too many women (who you would think know better) who have the baby first, or let the man move in first and then bring try to bring up marriage or don’t bring it up at all. Then it becomes why buy the cow at this point, especially for a man that came from his mama’s house to your house.
Thats why I am thinking its just not important to many women. Too many make decisions that show that they really don’t care whether they are married or not.
I am not knocking older men, I don’t think women of any race have much of a probably dating someone older yet financially stable LOL. I know some sistas with older men with less.
I am not knocking IR either. I just don’t want folks going in with rose colored glasses. I mean I have seen the outcome of some BM IRs in my family, the grass isn’t always greener.
Does anyone think financial instability is what is keeping marriage rates low for the black community?
Too many black woman are still under the ‘black women can survive anything’ spell. From what I see from my black female relatives and friends, I’m started to think they love struggling.
See this is what I am starting to think. Why do these women always have more than 2 children?
“Does anyone think financial instability is what is keeping marriage rates low for the black community?”
I don’t really think so. I remember reading an essay by Courtland Milloy where he talked about the low marriage/high divorce rates even amongst those earning high incomes and middle class/upper middle class status. Bottom line is, the nonexistent black community has decided that marriage is ‘inconvenient’ and have enacted a paradigm that is unsustainable to human life, especially to the nurturing of children. There’s really nothing more to say. The why and wherefores of them engaging in this behavior is for the most part, irrelevant. The fact is, folks have made these choices and have rendered the overwhelming majority of the black community to permanent underclass status. Get out now or be turned into a pillar of salt. Your move.
There are alot of issues attached to single motherhood that people forget about. These women are sometimes faced with poverty, bouts of depression for mom and child(a lot of black women hate to admit this), new significant mates which initial intentions are to be loving and caring but eventually ended being violent predators/terrorists, a lack of knowledge about the male gender, so many more scenerios to state.
Raising a child is not easy and no one is reaching out helping each other, this ignorant “many have raised children alone before you many will raising children alone after you” talk needs to stop, it poisoning to young girls mind.
I wouldn’t be to quick to expect a fair amount of respect from a non-black man either; thanks to the brainwashing networks and their depictions of a black woman. Many of those men think that a black woman’s body is circus playground and won’t necessarily take you serious.
Many of those men think that a black woman’s body is circus playground and won’t necessarily take you serious.
According to whom? What is the basis for this belief?
I’m not lionizing non-black men or saying that they’re all perfect gentlemen that treat women well, but I wonder why black women are so quick to bring up the “non-black men aren’t serious and only want black women for sex” thing.
Is this their own personal experience, or is this just “what they’ve heard?”
“Many of those men think that a black woman’s body is circus playground and won’t necessarily take you serious.”
Well, that’s nothing new. Sexist men of all races behave in a like manner. If the OOW rate is any indication black men haven’t exactly been taking black women seriously, either. We can keep doing what we’ve been doing or try something new.
See I have trouble telling whether its the women who actually don’t want to be married as well as the men, or just the men. I know too many women (who you would think know better) who have the baby first, or let the man move in first and then bring try to bring up marriage or don’t bring it up at all. Then it becomes why buy the cow at this point, especially for a man that came from his mama’s house to your house.
Thats why I am thinking its just not important to many women. Too many make decisions that show that they really don’t care whether they are married or not.
There is nothing wrong with being single, and I don’t think there’s a problem if a childless woman makes the conscious choice to stay single.
But I think that trying to figure out what percentage of the women in the unmarried category truly want to be married or not is a distraction to the point people are trying to make. Same when people say, “Well, how many of these women are lesbians?” “How many are in co-habitating relationships that last longer than some marriages?”
The point is, whether said heterosexual black women want to be married or not, many of these unmarried black women have children. The outcomes are worse for these children, period.
On a different note, one could also examine the reasons these women say they don’t want to be married, and I bet most would say that they never saw any successful marriages in their community or that they don’t think their partners would be good husbands.
But they still are having children. In completely less than optional situations. Whatever their reasons for not wanting to be married, the statistics are not supposed to measure that.
As far as I am concerned. I am not a marriage supremacist
when it comes to CHILD-FREE people. Everybody wasn’t meant to be married. I don’t even know that I would have a problem with unmarried adults who make the commitment to cohabitate as long as they have taken the additional steps to provide for their children in the event of death. Steps that would become unnecessary if they got married BTW.
The law doesn’t treat legitimate and illegitimate children any differently. The law does treat baby mamas and wifey’s, and “old ladies”, differently from WIVES. marriage confers rights responsibilities and privileges that derive out of the woman’s relationship to the man
. The law will take care of the children regardless of the woman’s relationship to the man.
So this isn’t about Black women choosing to be married or not. Thats a legal issue about adults. The OOW birthrate is a MORAL issue about children. Children of single adult households inherently have far more fragile lives than children who grow up in functional two-adult households. For a host of reasons, not just financially.
So mixing this argument in with a discussion about how many single Black women choose to be so is a redirection.
This isn’t about Black women who are single. More power to ya. This is about Black women who are raising children alone due to circumstances within their control and allowing men to abdicate their MORAL responsibility to protect and provide for their progeny. When I say “provide” I don’t mean that automatic child support deduction every month either.
The role of a male parent is larger than providing monetary support, but that’s all we’ve boiled it down to. I would say even if a man is paying his child support on time, but isn’t involved in the DAILY life of his child, then that’s a problem. Children are not raised by court order.
Lisa and Ros, IA with your points; no doubt IR dating is what alot of black women need to give a try.
I’m just saying be aware and mindful of others and don’t expect greener grass, thats all.
“I wouldn’t be to quick to expect a fair amount of respect from a non-black man either; thanks to the brainwashing networks and their depictions of a black woman. Many of those men think that a black woman’s body is circus playground and won’t necessarily take you serious.”
BW shouldn’t be involved with ANY man – regardless of “race” – who is so weak minded to believe everything they see in the Media.
BW need STRONG men who can think for themselves. Men who can come to their own conclusions based on personal experience. Men who have the ability to set their own beauty standards. Not men who allow themselves to be spoon fed “information” from non reputable sources.
BW don’t need mindless puppets. Couch potatoes soaking up that trash.
What statistical proof is there that “many of those men think that a black woman’s body is circus playground and won’t necessarily take you serious.”
Where is it? In a modern context? In 2009.
Now there IS statistical proof that the vast majority (and I mean VAST) of these fatherless children we’ve been discussing at these various blogs & sites, have black fathers. NOT white, asian, hispanic, indian, you fill in the blank.
The vast majority of BW who are infected with HIV/AIDS were infected by BM.
The vast majority of BW (and girls) who are raped every year are raped by BM.
I could go on and on and on.
So, if anything…
“many of those BLACK men think that a black woman’s body is a circus playground and won’t necessarily take you serious”.
All? OF COURSE not. That would be a bold faces lie. BUT many.
IMO, your average marriage minded BW (especially dark-skinned and phenotypically West African featured) THESE DAYS – has a MUCH higher probability of securing a decent, well employed, family oriented, non color struck husband in the global community OUTSIDE of the “bc” than within it.
And I’ve proven this pictorially (and will continue to) again and again.
BW don’t need puppets of ANY race. They need men REGARDLESS of “race” who can think for themselves, and realize the medias “job” is to keep the status quo. Keep the have and have nots right where they are. Nothing more. Which explains the foolishness.
I truly believe BW’s marriage rates would shoot the roof – and the OOW birth rate would plummet – if sistas started evaluating men on their CHARACTER, family orientation, income potential, and other important things, instead of color/”race”.
The same way other NON AA BW do instinctively.
Plus, it just REAKS of insecurity and low self-esteem to be “into” dudes who are NOT (and have shown you in word and deed) into you in return. Dudes who are not into you to the SAME degree you’re into them.
IF more BW simply applied the common sense principal of RECIPROCITY ACROSS THE BOARD – including in the area of relationships of all kinds – MOST of the problems many BW are facing would disappear.
“I’m just saying be aware and mindful of others”
Now that IS a good point. It’s important for BW (and people in general) to be aware and mindful of EVERYONE regardless of “race” and gender.
People should be VERY selective of who they let into their lives.
Especially their personal lives.
The AA community have created a culture that has effectively NORMALIZE single parenthood. The AA community have effectively NORMALIZE illegimate children sans marriage.
THIS IS NOT NORMAL…alot of black people don’t realize this until they leave all-black areas where it is an aberration.
White America almost put Sarah Palin’s teen daughter in the shedder, can you IMAGINE what they’d do a black single mother?
I don’t care how many people justify single parenthood. Gina said in her other post: America is structured around two adults. Unless you’re a widow or a divorcee, there is absolutely no excuse for OOW kids.
Single parents with OOW kids must tell their children the truth. They must say it is NOT acceptable to have a baby early, do not repeat the mistakes of the parent, a a baby is not an accessory or a play toy, etc.
I’m sick and tired of hearing “well, if my mother did it and she did fine, I can do it too.” I’m sick of the Harriet Tubman (I’m a mule to the world) schtick. IT IS NOT NORMAL.
Alot of black girls/boys don’t see how DELAYING early parenthood can IMPROVE their socioeconomic mobility. and someone must TEACH them… it is vitally important.
Like Roslyn said in, because of the numerous bad decisions, many black folks have NOW effectively relegated themselves and a SIGNIFICANT portion of the black community to permanent UNDERCLASS.
And We’re seeing the results of it right now where many predominately black neighborhoods are unfortunately unliveable. Young black teens in gangs terrorizing the streets, etc.
What do we do now? Save those who can be saved.
1. Delay early parenthood
2. Avoid obviously trifling men & women
3. Stay in school
4. Surround youself with a positive circle of friends.
ETC…
About the IR thing…my thoughts are if a woman is hanging around trifling black men…chances are she’s going to hang around trifling men of ANY race. I’m about quality and if you are not picking quality men to begin with… Someone needs to change their standards… and their circle of friends. I always thought the motto “You are what you attract.” rang true.
LD, on the one hand I hear what you’re saying about not to automatically expect greener grass by broadening your dating options leading to marriage. But on the other hand, given an 80% OOW rate and an over 72% unmarried rate, it’s hard to see how black women could become any worse off by including non-black men in our options. One dates/marries an individual, so it’s important to vet that particular individual and not just make assumptions based on his racial/ethic/cultural/class affiliations. If you broaden your choices, you increase your odds of finding what you want. That to me is just logical. While it does not establish what race/ethnicity etc. your chosen mate will be, the odds do become greater that he won’t be black. And I am fine with that. Black or non-black, it’s the individual man and what we’re each bringing to the table that count.
And I’m not particularly impressed with all these BW who claim not to be attracted to white men or other non-black men. I think this is just a defense mechanism (they think these men don’t like them, so they dislike these men first) or social conditioning (we must support and protect the black man at all costs and not do anything that might hurt his little feelings in the slightest, regardless of how much he keeps hurting and ignoring our feelings). So often the same BW who claims not to like white men will go all weak in the knees for Ben Jealous or black actors who are and look more white than black, but the moment the man is identified as “white”, we’re suddenly “turned off”. That’s being “culturally correct” – that’s not being honest.
Good point Sandra.
You understand that telling someone how much they need…or that their child needs… something they’ve never had is almost futile. It’s difficult even as adults, and almost incomprehensible as a child to fully know what was missing and how things could have been so “different” with a father present within the household. What does that mean exactly: “different”? And does that necessarily translate to so much “better”? Well, we know that only a man can show a boy how to be a man…but his cousins and uncles can do that for him too, right? And I’m a female and my daddy didn’t live with us, but I turned out just fine…And my girlfriend’s dad lives with her and she began having sex earlier than me…or my girlfriend’s dad lives with them and he’s a bum…or he’s abusive…or he don’t have not say-so over anything any ol’ way, nobody listens to him…or my girlfriend’s parents are married but her mom has to work too anyways, so she’s home alone just as much as I am…so WHAT oh WHAT is so important about having a man in my home? I already know that most boys are only after 1 thing and be tryin’ to run game on me cuz my momma, or my brothers told me So WHAT can a father do for my child…my daughter…that I can’t do for her or that my mom didn’t do for me? Or well, I’m over 30 with a graduate degree and a 6 figure salary so why does my baby still need a father?
The answers to those questions are apparently not CLEAR enough for many (especially young) people so that they can truly recognize a PROBLEM as a PROBLEM that needs to be fixed. With that said, in addition to the married/unmarried/single parent statistics in your post, it would have also been helpful to state the statistics…of HS dropout rates, college attendance & graduate rates, unwed pregnancy, incarceration, drug abuse, rape, poverty etc….that affect offspring of single parents to a greater degree than children of married couples. At least information like this will get the conversation started around WHY fathers are important to a child since apparently so many have made up their minds that he’s: umm not so important!
“So this isn’t about Black women choosing to be married or not. Thats a legal issue about adults. The OOW birthrate is a MORAL issue about children. Children of single adult households inherently have far more fragile lives than children who grow up in functional two-adult households. For a host of reasons, not just financially”
This logic does not easily translate to the individual perpetuating the issue of OOW births in the black community. What does that mean…a “fragile” life? And socioeconomic development or elevation simply translates to not being on welfare to many…so as long as the gov’ t is not paying for my children then what is it to you? And you’re calling me “immoral”…who are you to judge? Again when having internet conversations with others of mostly “like minds” sometime it helps to hear from the perspective of others with the mentality that you’re challenging.
And I’m a female and my daddy didn’t live with us, but I turned out just fine…And my girlfriend’s dad lives with her and she began having sex earlier than me…
And that right there, using the exception to try to define the rule is about HALF of the problem. You turned out fine. You can have a heart attack and survive, but you don’t see PR campaigns to promote myocardial infarctions? You don’t see “support” systems for people who eat four strips of bacon everyday with a side of butter.
You didn’t have a daddy and turned out fine. well great for YOU. You can lose one of your kidneys and turn out fine, but you don’t see people lining up at the foreign organ donor farms to sell one of the two they have.
You don’t see people signing up to sweep mind fields even though they will be FINE if they lose a leg.
The fact that you did not grow up with a Father present in your life doesn’t mean that you are doomed, but STATISTICS which don’t bow to personal agendas and “feelings” would indicate that Fatherlessness leaves children more vulnerable.
From someone who grew up with a Daddy, heres my perspective of some of the things you MIGHT have missed out on.
A) I got to see a healthy man-woman relationship modeled in my own home EVERY DAY.
B) I got the benefit of two adults who problem -solve and parent in two different ways. yes our mother set most boundaries, but we also had the FUN of those times when Mama was out of town and Daddy was left in charge.
C) Going to bed at night with the last sound you hear being your Daddy walking through the house turning off the lights and making sure the doors were locked.
D)Waking up in the morning to the sound of NPR and my Daddy’s truck starting up so he could go to WORK! A man that does not work, does not eat.
E) having access to a paternal extended family. Fathers don’t just bring their presence to the table, but they bring and entire family of aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents that form yet another layer of protection.
F) Its great that you make six figures, but how much will your children inherit? Will they have to start over from scratch. if you were able to build any networth, imaging how much more you could have built if you had two people working towards the goal on half the expenses.
G)being able to wake up in the middle of the night when you hear a bump in the night and knowing your Daddy will wake up, go out doors and check it out.
H) Knowing that no matter where you go and what you do, if your Daddy is around you’ll likely be okay.
I) Getting five dollars and permission to go to the movies when you know if you asked your Mama, the answer would be “No” and “No.”
J) Having yet another parent to mock with your siblings.
K) Having the same father as your siblings- its hard enough to manage sibling relationships with two of the same parents, imagine what its like if all of your siblings have different parents, different grandparents, aunts and uncles.
L) Spending EVERY holiday together with the SAME family- you can’t put a dollar figure on the value of shared memories and family bonding.
M)Being able to be a CHILD without adult decision making responsibility. There wasn’t any need for me to be my mother’s helpmate in any way. she already had one of those. No need for Black male children to engage in risky behavior to prove they are the “man of the house”
N)Ironically, my mother was the sports junky, and the outdoors woman because HER father was. But in most cases Fathers have a completely different set of interests than mothers so you get the benefit of exposure to twice the number of hobbies, jobs, reading genres.
O) Another person for you to love.
P) Another person to love you.
Q)Another person to call if something goes wrong.
R)Blanketed protection from predatory men and boys-predators tend to target the weakest and most unprotected. If they had to choose between getting past an Black man and a Black woman, I’d think they’d choose to target the girl with the female gatekeeper-.
S)Father’s Day
T) The image of your Daddy rushing to get a Mother’s Day gift every year.
U)Getting to observe construction projects gone wrong.
V) Getting to observe construction projects gone right.
W) Getting to observe a demonstration of shared responsibility and compromise.. DAILY
X)getting to see male-male friendships modeled on a Daily basis. If Daddy ain’t around every day, you don’t get to see and hear him interact with his friends.
Y)Haircuts
z) The hilarity of getting to mull cockamamie suggestions like an offer to subscribe to cable if all of the women of the house would forgo Easter outfits that year. BWAHAHA
As always, there are exceptions to every rules. But yes, sorry Daddies are a BONUS. The fact that someone might not have had one doesn’t change the fact that they are a bonus to those that do. The idea that everyone CAN do without doesn’t mean we SHOULD.
Its not jut about what a Father does, its about how children feel, even when they aren’t aware they are feeling it. I have no doubt that one of the LARGEST reasons many young Black men are in a fast track to prison is their attempt to feel the void left by their fathers and inappropriate relationships with their mothers. Black boys are CHILDREN not MEN of the HOUSE.
If you think the only role of a daddy is to make sure you don’t have sex, then YEAH, I’m sorry, you really did miss out.
@justsaying
If you re-read the comment without attempting to inject your own personal agenda. You, like many others will try to derail the discussion by injecting emotion into the argument not based on facts. Because if you looked at the situation NUMERICALLY, you would have to question your own choices and decisions in life. Again, you aren’t my target. You’re lost. You can’t unring the bell, we can certainly promote a competing ideology to yours that apparently wants to promote the FALLACY that there are no consequences for male abandonment.
If you abandon your child, then YES you are IMMORAL.
By “fragile” I mean if you jump out an airplane with two parachutes, that’s dangerous.
If you jump out with a single parachute with only one parachute, that foolish.
If you jump out with no parachute at all, that’s suicide.
You may survive jumping out with one parachute, but it is not advisable and it is not free of consequences like broken legs.
It is ridiculous or just plain delusional to not be able to see that a child with only ONE parent has one less parachute to rely on as they skydive through life. If you can’t see that, that’s because you don’t want to.
I will not be deterred by obfuscationists and redirectionists. i will not be deterred by adults with personal agendas. i will not be deterred by specious attacks implying we are picking on single mothers. I want Black women to win and I am willing to take on the entire Black elite establishment, CRIC, The Regime, and the League of the Immorally indifferent to promote the SIMPLE concept that MALE ABANDONMENT IS BAD.
If you’re too brain-dead and delusional to get that, then go play on a highway blind folded during rush hour traffic, you’re not my concern or my target audience.
“I shall not be moved!”
This is for those that are able and willing to hear the message. If you have to be convinced, dragging and kicking to do something in YOUR best interest then you may need to be left to your own devices.
We need to get the message out to those whose minds haven’t completely closed. That permanent underclass status is no joke.
Damn Gina! Somebody’s got to be Gandalf.
WOW…1st of all, let me clarify something that was obviously unclear to you (and probably others reading also)…I was playing devils advocate! I was not speaking from my own perspective…nor trying to promote any particular agenda. But again, it worked, cause your response to me resonated with all of the frustration I feel when trying to relay these sentiments to someone who really needs to hear them.
My point to you again is: the attitude and the defensiveness that I presented to you are the same attitude that you’ll get when trying to explain the importance of being married 1st before having a baby, to someone who’s already made up their minds that it really doesn’t matter. This is the uphill battle we’re fighting in our communities and why the numbers continue to go UP on single parenthood…even when the evidence shows that it’s not working for us!
Personally I came from a single family home, but chose not to have the same experience for my own daughters.
And not for nothing, many of the things that you listed that your daddy did for you, many would argue that their mom did for them (or older brothers). Don’t be mad, it’s true. Sometime trying to have a “civil” conversation around these things is like preaching to the choir, cause those who need to hear aint, aint tryin’ to hear it! And from reading your blog I know you’re all about ACTION..not talk!
Wow @28.
I TRIED to have this convo with a friend whose father abandoned her along with her mother. I could not describe the tangible intangibles as well as you did.
Dad taught us how to ride bikes. He “did” our hair when mom was out of town. He gave us piggyback & horsey rides. He let us push the mower with him. He taught us how to drive. When one parent was busy, the other could step in and occupy us. They weren’t too worn down to discipline or laugh with us. We had game night. He took us out to dinner and pulled chairs out for us. He held out our coats. Dad also sent us flowers on valentine’s day. I passed out with a fever once in middle school. It was easier for Dad to take off, so he picked me up. When I passed out, he carried me down the stairs.
You are sooo right regarding the family too. To this day I crack up seeing how my father (and mom) interacts with his immediate family.
A lot of the resistance you get is from people who – while they think their lives weren’t bad – know that they could have been a hell of a lot better. They don’t want to slight mom.
Again remember I also wrote this:
“The answers to those questions are apparently not CLEAR enough for many (especially young) people so that they can truly recognize a PROBLEM as a PROBLEM that needs to be fixed. With that said, in addition to the married/unmarried/single parent statistics in your post, it would have also been helpful to state the statistics…of HS dropout rates, college attendance & graduate rates, unwed pregnancy, incarceration, drug abuse, rape, poverty etc….that affect offspring of single parents to a greater degree than children of married couples. At least information like this will get the conversation started around WHY fathers are important to a child since apparently so many have made up their minds that he’s: umm not so important!”
I’m on your side…so why I gotta be “brain dead” and all that…dang! Tryin’ to converse with a sista and they hittin’ below the belt! LOL!
A lot of the resistance you get is from people who – while they think their lives weren’t bad – know that they could have been a hell of a lot better. They don’t want to slight mom.
Its utter and COMPLETE selfishness. The “I didn’t have it so nobody else needs it either.”
The idea that 1+0=2. Um no. 1+1=2, 1+0=1, 2>1.
1 does not equal two no matter how you slice it, dice it, scatter it, smother it or cover it. 1 has not now nor will it ever equal 2.
@lajane
They completely lose out on the immense humor in Daddy trying to be Mama and failing. yes, the hair all over head hair grooming attempts, the male version of child monitoring, that winded up with you getting into Black shoe polish, Mama coming home asking what happened to her child when the non-lethal exploits you could only get away with your father are discovered. Men’s concept of child monitoring is “are any bones broken? No, alrighty then!”
Daddys totally rock in ways other than a paycheck. Why people wouldn’t want that experience for all children befuddles me.
“Daddys totally rock in ways other than a paycheck.”
Yeah it was cool learning how to ride a bike with daddy and learing how to change a tire. Daddy telling me all the tricks and trades a nappy-headed boy will do just to get in my pants.
@LD COMPLETELY forgot the changing of the tire stories. once they got old enough to drive, Daddy would stand back on the side of the road and supervise my sisters changing the tire. Yeah, Mama could have done it, but it was “different.”
How can you convince some folk otherwise is the question, I never heard anyone out and out say they didn’t need 2 parents. Just getting by is good enough for a lot of people especially in our community, how do you convince them otherwise?
And at one point most black children were living in 2 parent and in 2 generations it was almost completely dismantled? It couldn’t have been all Leave it to Beaver back then if it only took 40 years for the opposite to occur.
Unless social programs would stop providing incentives for having children you cannot afford than I don’t see this problem going anywhere. Sometimes I feel like a fool, these women out here getting free food and $100 apartments just because they had some kids they couldn’t afford.
@Naima
“How can you convince some folk otherwise is the question, I never heard anyone out and out say they didn’t need 2 parents. Just getting by is good enough for a lot of people especially in our community, how do you convince them otherwise?”
That’s my point…almost. Cuz some folks truly believe that they don’t NEED 2 parents to raise their kids.
When blogs such as this one have discussions like this, for the most part it comes down to mostly like minded individuals sharing their experiences and opinions…AT BEST I see it as a training ground for these same individuals to gain additional knowledge/information/ammunition so when and if they have the opportunity to affect the mentality of those who are “less educated” and/or “less informed” in the real world…they may be able to do so more effectively.
Cuz if we’re honest with ourselves, when we’re talking about unwed mothers in the black “communities” having multiple children with multiple baby daddies with nary a ring on their finger…we’re mostly talking about “Shenenah” and “Shaniqua” and they are not reading this blog…they are over at mediatakeout or theybf. [Although I do suspect that we may have some over 30s or 40s with 6 figure salaries who've decided to go it alone lurking]. In any case we’re all here because we recognize the problems in our “communities” and we’d like to see a change.
So if you ever have the opportunity to speak with one of your younger or just less informed female counterparts and you’re trying to convince her not to go on and have baby number 2 or 3, cuz she already has baby #1 and daddy’s gone…how do you think she’s going to respond to you initially? You must understand that as she defends her actions, her motherhood and her womenhood you may hear from her many of the same things I wrote in comment #26…and how exactly will you respond to her? Will you call her brain dead and delusional and tell her she’s not the one you’re trying to help anyway? If so then you’ve just lost your 1st battle.
So I come here and play “devil’s advocate” so that we can possibly have constructive conversations about how to reach those who may not be on our same level mentally, socioeconomically, educationally or otherwise…but who could still use our help…but without coming off as condescending.
@Gina…those experiences with your dad that you shared in #28 are beautiful…and I almost envy you for them..but my childhood w/o a dad but with 6 brothers and 1 sister was still a happy childhood. But again I was closer to the youngest and do realize that my older siblings had to take on a lot more responsibility than they should have (such as teaching me to ride a bike…and to drive…and fixing appliances around the house…and cooking…and babysitting) if their had been a father in the house. Although now we laugh about them, and even they would tell you that they had a mostly happy childhood…but still wouldn’t put that much responsibility on their own children either.
once again, I’m gon’ say it one more time for thepeople at the back who didn’t her me…..THIS AIN’T ABOUT YOU!!!!
Great, you had a happy childhood. I didn’t say you didn’t. I understand your need to reject the concept of Daddy’s being a great benefit to children because you would interpret that as your mother being in error or your childhood being inferior. Nobody want’s to feel inferior so I understand your PROJECTION of your unique experience on all the fatherless children of the modern world.
THIS isn’t about YOU needing validation from ME to validate the “happiness” of your particular childhood.
This is about the widespread dismanteling of the only foundation of civilization that we know of without any replacement. If the numbers in important categories were going DOWN or staying the same, I wuld buy your argument, but their not.
I’m not going to sit silent about entire generation of black people grow up thnking prison, running trains, stripping, smoking weed, indiscriminant sex, nonexistent family planning and all other forms of debauchery which I can point to fatherless as a major contributor, are somehow normal or unavoidable.
As amazing as your childhood had been, there but the grace of God something didn’t happen to your Mom.
Plus the multi family of the past isn’t ANYTHING like these modern day trainwrecks where Mothers have children by multiple men who have children by multiple women.
Yes. He MADE us walk down the street to change mom’s tire. granted I have AAA…but still
@Lajane and you know WHY? Because yo’ Daddy didn’t want you to ever be stuck on the side of the road somewhere with a flat tire and not know how to change it.
I think some of the “this is about me” folks enjoy deliberately missing the point(s). The early Civil Rights movement was not embraced by a majority of black people. A lot of prominent black organizations did not like, or support, what those people were doing.
We have to keep in mind this problem started over 40 years ago. Most, if not all, of the family breakdown, began with changes in the law that lead to government aid being worth more than a father’s paycheck. This damage worked in conjunction with a sexually irresponsible and permissive culture that hurts women, while pretending to empower them.
If government incentives are powerful enough, it will change people’s behavior. Eventually, there will have to be laws that gradually move people away from this dysfunctional lifestyle. Positive or negative social pressure will be the other hand that guides people in the right direction.
Positive turnarounds rarely happen overnight.
Plus, doubting Thomases shouldn’t underestimate the power of blogging.
“I think some of the “this is about me” folks enjoy deliberately missing the point(s). The early Civil Rights movement was not embraced by a majority of black people. A lot of prominent black organizations did not like, or support, what those people were doing.” –Betty Chambers
Wonderful point; glad you made it!
MLK, Jr. and those with him were constantly referred to (by much of the Black establishment) as “troublemakers” in the early days. When he won the Nobel Peace Prize and was acknowledged by (some) societal elites, the haters were silenced and some eventually joined the tide of history.
Progressive movements are never popular until it is clear they will carry the day.
@Gina…
I”m disappointed in the least at your responses to my comments because you’re not attempting to respond to any of the points that I’ve made. I never wrote that it was about me…and I never made that same charge to you when you went on to list all of the experiences you had with YOUR dad.
And I’ve also stated that, although I grew up in a single family household, I UNDERSTAND and RESPECT the need for a father in the household thus I consciously made that decision for MY OWN household as an adult.
And at exactly what point in my comments did I state (seriously) that growing up w/o a father was a GOOD thing? I just said that my childhood w/o one was relatively happy…it IS what it IS…which goes back to what I stated about 4 comments or so ago that PEOPLE CAN ONLY GO BY THEIR OWN EXPERIENCES…AND THEY CAN’T MISS WHAT THEY NEVER HAD…so comparing your childhood to someone else’s would not be a viable point of reference when/if trying to change their perspective about having children out of wedlock. I’ve had enough exposure in my lifetime to different people and cultures to understand that things still could have been better under different circumstances…and that my mother’s life was a lot harder than it needed to be based on the decisions she made. But many people who are still making the same mistakes as their parents still have not had that exposure so they still DON’t KNOW ANY BETTER.
But again, I’m not looking for validation from you nor am I looking to try to validate your experiences, opinions or anyone else’s.
I’m simply trying to challenge you and every other person posting on this thread to find ways to communicate the very REAL need for fathers to OTHERS who’ve decided that it’s not important. How do you make your outrage matter?
When it comes to BET or Dunbar village, you have addresses to write to, people to contact and companies to complain to. So when it comes to reaching out to sisters who are suffering from broken childhoods, low self-esteem, limited perspectives and in many cases limited options…how do we reach them when they won’t even acknowlege, let alone comprehend the role that the decisions they’ve made has on the decay of the black community and society on the whole?
And no, I’m not looking to YOU for all the answers, I’m just trying to open the discussions for more practical solutions.
We are focusing primarily on the benefits of fathers to children, and I really can’t add on to the A-Z list Gina outlined above. Well written. (And aren’t you supposed to be on blogcation?
The benefits to black WOMEN, though, of a father in the household are just as relevant. My husband makes a point of flirting with me in front of the kids constantly. And it occurred to me the other day (and it nearly brought tears to my eyes) that I didn’t get to see my mother loved, petted, and kissed coming up. When I’m wore out and can’t deal with the kids he steps in and cooks dinner, washes clothes, breaks up sibling arguments, cleans house, and de-stresses me to boot. And when I broke my leg back in April and was laid up in the bed for a month, he did all of that on his own. Tire flat? He’s got it. Something needs fixed? He’s on it. And, yes, the weekly paychecks direct deposited into our joint account are far preferable to dealing with child support.
Part of dismantling the myth of the black superwoman is acknowledging that she needs a helpmate. Yes we can do it alone, but the benefits of having your children’s father in the home, assuming he is a good, responsible man, are IMMEASURABLE.
@justsaying
And thus your conumdrum.I’m not interested in playing social worker on this issue. I am interested in playing the role of the oracle/prophet/ town crier.
We have different roles on different issues. Because equivocating and an inability or unwillingness to draw CLEAR BRIGHTLINE OBJECTIVE STANDARDS, we keep sliding down this “slippery” slope in to the abyss.
We allow discussions about a group that had a PR campaign using celebrity mothers to purport to give advice to women on how to RAISE HIM ALONE, and people want to HEM HAW about the DANGEROUS message they are promoting.
If a bear is trying to crash through my cabin window and eat me alive. I have many choices. I can play Devil’s advocate and ponder my role as a human in invading the bear’s territory. I can try to attempt to understand the bear’s perspective. I can ponder future programs to deal with a long range solution for human bear interactions. Or in the interest of surviving, I can walk over to my fire place mantle, grab a shotgun and open fire on smokie. He may have had really good reasons for trying to eat me alive, perhaps we wasn’t going to eat me alive at all, maybe he just wanted some pie or a pic-a-nic basket. As far as I am concerned this RAISE HIM ALONE campaign is a bear that’s going to devour future generations of young Black children. I’m shooting it down because on its face its dangerous. You can go play with Smokie the bear all you like, just don’t take you kids with you.
@pecola and does this husband have a brother
Progressive movements are never popular until it is clear they will carry the day.
Thanks for the historical perspective.
WHo was it that said never underestimate what a small determined group of people can accomplish? That’s what all of these “its moot,” “you can’t change this,” “its over” people don’t get. They keep thinking it takes a mass movement of people. It doesn’t. never has, never will. It always starts with a tiny group. Heck look at what Tyler Perry has done (destructively, but effectively) to Black cinema and television. He’s now the only Black person that appears to be able to keep scripted programming featuring Black casts on the air.
One man.
Its going to take some time to master this blogcation thing. I’m trying though
JustSayin,
I just want to say that I “hear” you. My parents didn’t have me out of wedlock but they did divorce when I was young. While the stats say that kids are at a higher risk for social ills being raised by a single mom, the stats do not declare that the problems are inevitable. In fact, I’d bet that a large number of children by single moms are well adjusted. However, I’m sure that we will both admit that being raised by a mother and father is the best environment for a child. I also believe strongly that a good father need not be biologically related to the child.
Some things I’ve read about families:
Single father headed families have less problems than single mother headed families.
Being raised by a single mother is safer than being raised by a bio parent/step-parent couple (potential for abuse).
To my surprise, step-mothers can pose a greater problem for children than step-fathers.
Same race marriages tend to last longer than interracial marriages.
Asians tend to outperform both whites and blacks academically (even blacks from two parent families)
My point in mentioning all of this is that there are many life scenarios that are shown to be better than others. Why stop at one issue?
Again, while I strongly believe that it’s better to have a mother and father in the home, the jury is still out on the real effects of fatherlessness within the black collective, IMO. Three reasons:
-Do blacks socialize their children differently than nonblacks (discipline, education, etc.) Is that socialization the real culprit?
-Are black children really fatherless or are their parents simply unmarried? I ask because I regularly see black men with their children. Being born out of wedlock doesn’t automatically mean the child is fatherless.
There is a growing segment of white women who classify themselves as single mothers by choice (adoption, sperm donors, known donors, etc). As a result of my extensive conversations with them (seriously), I notice that they distance themselves from “typical single mothers” (the black and poor mothers). Also, studies are still in progress on the effects of “single motherhood by choice” on their children. What if, just what if it turns out that their children do better than those of poor black women? Will we still be able to blame fatherlessness for the plight of the black collective?
Again, fathers are important and ALL women should wait until marriage barring any extreme circumstances (that would include a medical diagnosis where you are given a certain amount of time to have a child). However, the best testament to single motherhood are the children of such women.
@JustSaying:
You asked, “I’m simply trying to challenge you and every other person posting on this thread to find ways to communicate the very REAL need for fathers to OTHERS who’ve decided that it’s not important. How do you make your outrage matter?”-
What you’re not understanding is that this is a matter of triage. It’s ALREADY TOO LATE for the masses of African-Americans. The masses of AAs will be part of a PERMANENT UNDERCLASS in this country.
It’s already much too late for people who are so out of touch with human norms that they don’t feel it’s important to have a father. These folks will have fend for themselves. And die in the wilderness of permanent underclass lifestyles (actually deathstyles). They’re already lost causes and casualties.
For all practical purposes, they are already dead.
So, I’m not talking to or about them. I’m talking to and about those AA women and girls who are still salvagable. To those whose minds haven’t already been completely closed to the idea of living a NORMAL life as a woman.
Wasting our time trying to convince people who are “un-convincable” is part of how AAs got into this near-total-death condition. We lost people who were going to be lost anyway–the incorrigibles.
AND we lost several generations of the fence-sitters who could have been saved with some proper outreach—we lost these fence-sitters because we were focused on tailoring our messages to humor and cater to the incorrigibles.
This approximately 80% OOW rate means that we’ve already lost the MAJORITY of our people by trying to cater to the incorrigibles among us. Instead of wasting any further time on people who should be written off, it would be better to reach out to those who are on the fence.
Peace, blessings and solidarity.
A divorced mom is quite different than a single mom. I am a witness to that both on the outside and the inside. A couple of my uncles had children outside of the marriage and you can be sure those children were treated totally different from my cousins who were born in wedlock.
I worked with a lot of single mothers and let me tell you there lives are quite different from mine. My ex-husband pays support and stills spends time regularly with our children. Most of the single mothers never received a dime in support and their children rarely see my father. My father and uncles use to tell us girls in the family the way a man feels about the woman is the way he is going to feel about the children he has with her. I thought is was crazy, but as I got older I believe it more and more. A lot men do not love or even care for these women they are making children with, so why would we expect them to feel differently about the kids.
Men are quite different creatures. I have dated men who said they wouldn’t think about marrying a woman with children out of wedlock, but would marry one who was divorced. Some how in their mind it matters.
*shrugs*
These conversations always amuse me on one level ’cause most folks are entrenched in their corners and can’t see the other sides points to save their lives.
Anywho to whoever ask if finances are the big barrier to marriage in the black community the anser is yes.
If more people spent less time pontificating on the issues at head and spent more time reading the literature out their then folk would know the unemployable nature of most black men is why they marriage rates are so low.
As a matter of fact the marriage rates in the black community are directly proportional to the loss of manufacturing jobs that begin in the 70’s.
Men without jobs or who are underemployed are not going to get married. Period.
it’s not a whole lot more complicated than that. Combine the “war on drugs” that took place in the 80’s and continues today and you have even more men who aren’t likely to get married and many women who won’t marry them.
The benefits of a two parent household that chilren supposedly benefit from only apply to middle class families…sort of…middle class-dom doesn’t really inoculate black children from much of anything in the way that it does other classes of children.
Marriage is NOT a panacea. What everyone fails to mention is that parents who are poor and married – there kids suffer the exact same fate as the kids from single parent families.
The big issue with marriage is money. Having the extra income provides kids with a more stable living environment, access to better opportunities, better education etc.
In theory at least…like I said with Black kids not so much.
College educated women who are working – less than 10% of them live in poverty – so their kids aren’t likely to suffer the same issues as the single uneducated mom who lives in the hood.
Also – this conversation can be ha all day, but marriages rates are going to continue to drop across the board and women (and men) aren’t going to forgo having children for lack of a spouse…so now what?
The OOW (out of wedlock) birth rate has increased by 300% across the board since the 1970’s but is highest for black women at around 80%.
Actually this is inaccurate. Hispanic women have the highest OOW birthrate in the U.S. Black women have the highest PERCENTAGE of out-of-wedlock births. There is a difference. The rate of OOW births is the number of OOW births per 1,000 women of any particular group.
The higher percentage of OOW births for black women is mostly the result of the low birth rates for married black women. The birth rate for married black women is the lowest for all groups, thus kicking up the percentage of OOW births to the most recent official level of 70%. But the rate of OOW births for black women has actually been declining for 40 years while either increasing or remaining the same for non-black women.
In 1970 the birth rate for unmarried black women was 96 per 1,000. In 2005 it was 60.6 per ,1000. Despite this drop, the black marital birth rate has dropped even faster, reaching a level of 64.9 births for every 1,000 married black women in 2002. This is significantly lower than the the 2002 white marital birth rate of 88.2 for every 1,000 married white women. Historically, the black marital birth rate was always higher than the white marital birth rate. This is no longer the case.
If the black marital birth rate was even with white or Hispanic women, the percentage of OOW births among blacks would noticeably drop.
Here are some good links to this information:
http://www.blacknews.com/news/thora_institute101.shtml
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/01/us/birth-rate-falls-to-40-year-low-among-unwed-black-women.html
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr56/nvsr56_06.pdf
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr48/nvs48_16.pdf
@JJ Actually, I disagree. I think people don’t want to acknowledge the well documented affects of single adult households because they don’t want to FEEL bad. Show me the study that says that the poverty rates for single adult households are equal to those of two adult households? This is about the most FAIR report I can find and it ECHOES what I have said. Structurally, society isn’t built to support single adult households.
http://www.futureofchildren.org/usr_doc/Marriage_vol15_no2__fall05.pdf
“Because marriage has been, and continues to
be, stronger in the United States than in
much of Europe, American social welfare
policies have focused more on marriage than
have those of many European countries.”
What is going to happen is that marriage is going to become a status symbol just like a BMW or Christal champagne. We’re basically headed back to the middle ages. The wealthy and the powerful few will lord over the many. Legitimacy will become a privilege of the few and therefore its value will increase. Marriage has always been about the transfer of power and property. That’s not going to stop happening because people wish it were so.
People need to ask themselves what life in Black communities will look like when the OOW rate hits 95% You think this discussion is tiresome. Just wait for the backlash. Just because some folks are apathetic doesn’t mean others aren’t.
I think the issue is not just whether black children have married parents, but whether they have good parents period. Patriarchy has done a number on both woman and men, and there are many men who feel it’s acceptable to be absent from their child’s life EVEN WHEN THEY ARE MARRIED AND IN THE HOME.
On the other had there are an incredible number of single mom’s out here and if we care anything about their children, we have to have social policies in places that make life for their children better and don’t punish them because we’re “dissatisfied” with the way they were bought into this world. It’s not only the right thing to do, but it is in our best interest. A perfect example are workplace policies that are more supportive of family. Finding time to spend with family is difficult for all parents, particularly those that are single.
I do still believe however that it is important to stress the importance of fatherhood because it is a benefit to all parties: the mother, the child, the father and society at large. While there may be messages out there that diminish the importance of fatherhood, there are also messages out there that counteract that. I know that fatherhood is an important issue to Obama and every time I see that commercial his administration put out with the black father practicing cheerleading with his little girl, I can’t help but smile because that totally captures the beauty of father-daughter relationships. It makes me think of me and my dad. Some people don’t know what that type of relationship looks like and there’s a big difference between telling someone what they should do and showing them why. For those who are interested in the issue of fatherhood I would suggest checking out fatherhood.gov. I would also suggest looking at local organizations that are working on this issue. This is not a new issue and there a number of community based organizations that help support sound parenting and healthy environments for children that can always use and extra hand or financial assistance. This is how we help create community and build the extended networks children need to navigate in such a difficult world.
“Men are quite different creatures. I have dated men who said they wouldn’t think about marrying a woman with children out of wedlock, but would marry one who was divorced. Some how in their mind it matters.”
They aren’t that different. I’m the same way. I wouldn’t marry a man with children outside of marriage (and I know quite a few other women who wouldn’t either), but I’d consider a man who was divorced and had children. I think both situations speak to varying levels of responsibility on the individual’s part. Also, if I were a single mother with OOW children, I wouldn’t expect single men to look at me the same way either.
I also agree with Khadija, there are some people you just can’t reach and who just don’t want to hear it. Perhaps its time to forgo trying to convince those people and work on influencing those who are on the fence.
Excellent post Faith.
don’t punish them because we’re “dissatisfied” with the way they were bought into this world
Who is doing the punishing? Society or the parents?
Again, I’m going to keep harping on all of the red herrings and obfuscations and redirections. There are good practices and bad practices and the fact that people can’t say definitively that the ideal for MOST CHILDREN it to have BOTH of the adults that created them HANG AROUND, are 78.96% of the problem. The shotgun wedding wasn’t about morality, it was about responsibility.
Ditto on the Divorced with children versus baby daddy.
Ditto on EVENTUALLY ignoring the people on the bridge of the Titanic discussing all the various courses of action that need to be taken while they go under water.
I believe there are two different definitions of ‘Black community’ at work among black people (and that is if the idea of black community still remains an organizing principle for black folks because I do sometimes believe that a significant portion just live life).
The idea of ‘black community’ that holds sway for most of black people is the baseline definition, which is, ‘We as blacks continue to be born and thus continue to exist in the US etc.’ This definition or working principle requires no heightened concern about what happens after the physical existence (particularly for the men I should add).
Then there are those who feel that black community is about ‘thriving’ people, and recognize the need for purposeful organizing of resources and deliberate strategy (not just ‘topping up the black numbers’) because of a recognition that society itself is weighed against the very survival of black folks. This recognition is the key point of demarcation between the two groups, I believe, because it animates the second group towards deliberate living in a way to ensures survival and higher life quality in a hostile environment, as would not be the case if they believed for instance that ‘we have overcome’, ‘the government owes me’ etc etc.
There are also those trying to pull together these two diametrically opposed schools of thought (if you can call it that) on black community, and the compromises continue to come in form of rationalization for the first group and the changing of standards to accommodate their way of life.
So should the compromise be, in a manner of speaking, towards pulling the first group upwards or ratcheting the second downwards? Is it even possible to bring to two together, are they not fundamentally opposed?
When you apply the liberals lens to the activities of the first group, there isnt really anything wrong with single parenthood for an instance, but then (and this goes back to the key demarcating point), black people who are aware of their situation and the hostile forces arrayed against the very existence of black life, do not apply a liberal lens and liberal ideals for the life of black people.
@ #3 trunell1
Yes, the mentality of our society does need to change. The only way to do so is through a massive collective effort. This is accomplished when standardized material is in the hands of the masses and presented as a “third party reference.” Its one thing for JUST a parent saying it but entirely perceived differently coming from another authority type source. I think I may have a solution to that matter.
@ #14 LD
The “It takes a village…” concept is real! As long as child stays in a toxic environment, they are essentially doomed. Today’s communities (at least a majority of Black neighborhoods) are not structured to handle “the village” concept. We must teach the concept and practice it in order for it to work. The only thing we can do now is to find effective ways to embrace the young children today (take them away from their parents and give them new ones!) and teach them how to do it right the next go-around.
@ #18 gem2001
I agree with you about, “…Black women who are raising children alone due to circumstances within their control….” I’ve alluded to this and the father’s involvement in the DAILY lives, issue on several occasions in my blogs. We may not be able to undo the damage already perpetrated but certainly have a shot of preventing it in the future. I would love to work with you, and other minds of like character, to craft the details of what I propose.
@ #22 La Belle Femme
There are over 30 very specific quotes about The TRUTH in “It’s Mama’s Fault!” One of my favorites is Bill Cosby’s, “I want to tell the truth, and the truth often hurts.” On page 73, I explain what a mother should say to the child but as we all know, it will probably not happen because it is too painful. In a program I’m proposing, I want to disseminate such information.
@ #26 JustSaying
I have some stats for you and other references to get more if you choose.
@ #28 gem2001
There is a book, Whatever Happened to Daddy’s Little Girl?: The Impact of Fatherlessness on Black Women by Jonetta Rose Barras that really covers this topic well. I tremendously recommend it to ANY woman regardless of your personal paternal situation. Why? If not you then it is almost certain you have a girlfriend who does. However, be very careful because it WILL open up some wounds that you may not have known that you had but in my opinion, this is probably the best way to heal properly. Like a broken bone that has healed (so you thought) incorrectly and now you must re-break it in order to set it correctly. There will be pain but this sure beats the trauma of malignant repressed memories.
@ #30 fdow
There is a way to get the message out! Hopefully, you may be able to assist me in accomplishing that goal.
@ #32 JustSaying
I do not want to go off on a tangent about how to “relay [our] sentiments to [those] who really need to hear them,” I have some ideas on how to implement this process. I can use all the help I can muster, in order to implement successfully this monumental undertaking.
@ #39 Naima and
@ #40 JustSaying
“…how do you convince them otherwise?” The answer is with written, verbal and visual (if available) third party references.
@ #44 Betty Chambers
First, I tremendously agree with your saying that the “government aid being worth more than a father’s paycheck,” which I believe is a HUGE hindrance towards defeating this problem. However, I must disagree with your saying, “If government incentives are powerful enough, it will change people’s behavior. Eventually, there will have to be laws that gradually move people away from this dysfunctional lifestyle.” In my opinion, government has absolutely no business in my personal life or anyone else’s for that matter! The role of government should be in handling “the macro.” Those matters we can only accomplish collectively: Road Building, a Military, Fire Department, etc. Allowing, or heaven forbid, expecting them to “rescue” us from this issue is horribly misplaced. Going down that road is towards a Socialist Regime. I am a Capitalist and want to remain that way!
I think it is important in dealing with this emotive issue to realise that there are many in our community who have not seen better so do not know how to do better.We have to first aknowledge that single parenthood at such high rates has damaged a generation of black children who because of absent parents have had to deal with adult emotions of rejection, lack of confidence and not having a strong identity especially prevalent in young black boys who do not have male role models around.Ladies please think carefully about who the father of you child will be will you even know where he will be in 2 yrs, who his family are, whether he even wants to be a father-if you do not know how will you ever explain these things to your child. We must stop pretenting that our children are coping well in this society they are not and need two healthy, involved loving parents. The Obamas are a perfect example and we now have something to aspire to and must stop making excuses for low morals and turning away from strong family structures.
Betty Chambers:
We have to keep in mind this problem started over 40 years ago. Most, if not all, of the family breakdown, began with changes in the law that lead to government aid being worth more than a father’s paycheck. This damage worked in conjunction with a sexually irresponsible and permissive culture that hurts women, while pretending to empower them.
My reply:
I see this whenever I talk to my old school Dad and my young “old school” married male relatives.
Date a woman with no intention of marrying? My poor Dad, he was shocked at the very notion. If you are sleeping with her, it is because you are married or you intend to be. If you have children, you take care of them, because that is what a man does: get married and raise any children born of that union. And if God forbid, there are children out of wedlock, they are to be provided for also.
I agree, it will be impossible to reach those who don’t want to be reached, but who instead want to validate a less optimal choice. It is about reaching those fence-sitters or those who have not seen anything different from the disastrous status quo.
Memories of why Daddies matter:
1. Being a spoiled rotten girl child, because I know that from the moment I was born, my Daddy loved me. I can see it in our interactions and in the pictures from when I was a baby.
2. It was about calling Daddy at work to buy my favorite restaurant food if Mummy cooked something I didn’t like.
3. It is about returning the favor as an adult. Returning home to visit–I stop by Dad’s favorite places to get the food I know he would like, and I make sure I buy something for Mummy too.
4. It is about Daddy giving me “fun money” when I was a young adult going out to see my friends.
5. It is Daddy telling your husband on your wedding day that your new husband now has the job of looking out for you and “spoiling you rotten.”
6. It is about knowing that your parents have been together for 43 years and counting, and that if I call home, they are both excited to hear from me. They tell me about the latest gossip within the family and among their friends, many of whom they have known forever. They tell me about their latest adventures, whether it is about the vacation they just went on, what they saw on television this evening, or what they plan to do this week.
Halima said “I believe there are two different definitions of ‘Black community’ at work among black people (and that is if the idea of black community still remains an organizing principle for black folks because I do sometimes believe that a significant portion just live life).”
@Halima That was pretty dadgum profound. I needed to hear that right there. When I hear people talk about “the black community” being dead, my instinctive reply is MY Black Community isn’t dead. Don’t me and my friends and my support network of “strivers” count as a Black community? I still think that there is A community of Black people that share my values and I think it is a rather sizeable number that’s been silenced by GUILT by the OTHER Black community.
The other Black community is headed and controlled by the CRIC, the BEE, and the EIC. They control our institutions, all propaganda , they control our national dialog, the control the rules of almost every debate about important social issues that affect MY Black community. The silence MY Black community with authoritarianism and the myth of Black unity.
The “Two Black Americas” is always thought of in terms of class and income, but not in terms of values. No, a Chris Rock joke does not count because I know poor people who have the same value system I have in most areas.
When people would mention divestment from THE Black community in the comments section, my instant response was, wait a minute. There doesn’t need to be a withdrawal or retreat, there needs to be a cultural coup. MY Black community needs to take control of the major Black institutions and push an agenda that actually reverses the decline.
http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news
/2009_spr/marriage.htm
“The reason behind this marriage gap is the subject of much research. One answer is the rate of incarceration of young black men, which Banks said totals over one million – more than the number of young black men in college.”
This is NOT the reason because the BM incarcerated were not marriage material to begin with. They weren’t interested in (or qualified for) marriage to begin with.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTc7b5FbJpg&NR=1
“The gap could be the product of a numbers imbalance: There are more marriageable women than men.”
Common sense would therefor dictate that if marriageable and marriage minded BW are interested in marrying marriageable men, they expend their search to include ALL marriageable men in the GLOBAL market regardless of “race”.
It’s interesting how this important and helpful little tidbit of information is never mentioned in these doom and gloom reports.
“But Banks said marriage market issues cannot be the whole answer. If the gap were attributable to a numbers imbalance, one would assume that the available African-American men would all be married.”
LOL It looks like someone is putting two and two together…
“Richard Banks
On the contrary, “the men who are in short supply are less likely to marry than their white counterparts,” Banks said. “That’s extraordinary.”
It’s not “extraordinary”. It’s TYPICAL. Most post civil-rights BM are simply different in key ways than most non BM.
At least on the relationship front.
Statistically speaking, they value marriage, and fatherhood to a less degree than non BM.
Exceptions are nice, but their not the rule.
“Black men also show a different socioeconomic marriage pattern than men from other races. The typical pattern is that the wealthier a man is, the more likely it is that he will marry. Among black men, however, the pattern is reversed. A black man who makes over $150,000 a year is less likely to marry than a black man who makes $70,000 a year, Banks said.”
What more can be said…
“Once you study it and see the full dimensions of that gap, it makes you just sit down and say, ‘Wow,’” Banks said.”
Wow indeed. Marriage minded BW who are interested in baring children IN wedlock, need to STOP beating a DEAD horse.
They need to expand their search to include ALL viable marriage minded, family oriented, gainfully employed, non colorist, yada yada men in the GLOBAL community regardless of “race”.
As for the black children continuing to be born into these less than ideal situations, many of them will continue to become negative statistics. Growing numbers of them will clog the foster care system, prison-industrial complex, and face homelessness.
IMO it all boils down to values yet again. It certainly seems that a large percentage of black folks – regardless of economic level – simply have mindsets that are out of step with world wide human norms.
Take this study for instance…
http://www.urban.org/publications/
310300.html
“There were significant associations between a mother’s education, race/ethnicity, marital status, poverty status, and age and her attitudes toward non marital childbearing. Better-educated mothers were significantly more likely to hold negative attitudes toward nonmarital childbearing than were those with limited schooling, and white and Hispanic mothers were less supportive of non-marital childbearing than were African Americans (table 1).”
So even among welfare recipients receiving the same amount of aid, the BW STILL were more supportive of non-marital childbearing than WW and HW.
SMH
This dynsfunctionality has been normalized.
It’s the THINKING folks. That’s the problem. The mindset.
The IDEAL situation is to meet, fall in love, marry, and then have children.
If something happens later at least an attempt was made to do it right at the beginning.
MOST children outside of the “bc” have the benefit of being brought into this world under such ideal conditions.
And that’s why these other children statistically speaking tend to be better off.
They got a better start at the beginning.
IMO If BW were to simply disregard “race” as a factor, and instead focused like a laser on the IMPORTANT things that a man should bring to the table, this whole discussion that’s taking place online and off across the country would be MOOT point.
Panel Explores Minority Marriage Gap
Full working link below…
http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2009_spr/marriage.htm
I just want to ask one question: Is it necessary to be married and have that male figure in your child’s life or is it necessary to just have a male figure(s)? I’m just curious.
http://blog.rooseveltinstitution.org/2008/01/18/unimprisoned-black-men-aware-of-their-position-in-society-relationships/
“One corrosive force is the prison system. In his new book, The Logic of Life, Tim Harford identifies a rather clear link between incarceration rates and marriage patterns. According to Harford, the prison system affects marriage rates in two important ways. First, when there are a lot of young black males in prison, black females have a harder time finding eligible partners.”
ONLY if they limit their search to BM. If BW open their search to include ALL viable men in the global community regardless of “race”, their is NO shortage of eligible partners.
“What’s more surprising is that as incarceration rate of otherwise marriageable black men increases, the behavior of non-incarcerated black men in the same areas changes. Black men who know the odds are stacked in their favor are less likely to marry.?”
Again and again, different reports and studies conducted by different researchers are all coming to the SAME conclusion.
BM – for whatever reason – regardless of socioeconomic level and residence, tend to be more marriage resistant.
Therefor, if a single BW is seriously interested in marriage – and baring children within wedlock – it would naturally behoove her to expand her search to include ALL viable men regardless of “race”.
“I just want to ask one question: Is it necessary to be married and have that male figure in your child’s life or is it necessary to just have a male figure(s)? I’m just curious.”
From the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services…
http://www.acf.hhs.gov/healthymarriage/benefits/index.html
Benefits of Healthy Marriages
For Children and Youth
Researchers have found many benefits for children and youth who are raised by parents in healthy marriages, compared to unhealthy marriages, including the following:
More likely to attend college
More likely to succeed academically
Physically healthier
Emotionally healthier
Less likely to attempt or commit suicide
Demonstrate less behavioral problems in school
Less likely to be a victim of physical or sexual abuse
Less likely to abuse drugs or alcohol
Less likely to commit delinquent behaviors
Have a better relationship with their mothers and fathers
Decreases their chances of divorcing when they get married
Less likely to become pregnant as a teenager, or impregnate someone.
Less likely to be sexually active as teenagers
Less likely to contract STD’s
Less likely to be raised in poverty
The main culprit is lazy and as attorneymom would say “punk azz parents”, whether you got one or two of them. A emotionally distant present father is just as bad as no father.
I know folks with 2 parents who was still try to live out ghetto fantasies. middle class black neighborhoods have been destroyed b/c of the culture. Did anyone hear about that Morehouse student that shot up a club in ATL, but his parents had the money and power so he didn’t go to jail and ended up graduating?
I think there are issues in the larger black culture that needs to be addressed as Lormarie said. I am not saying single parenting is the optimal choice, but I think there are other issues that need to be addressed regarding our collective culture.
And regarding something else in your post, you accuse black men of colorism (which is true some for some of them) but then you advocate IR dating which will in turn create more light skin mixed people. And did it ever occur to you that BM who worship whiteness were themselves at one point made fun for being dark or having black features?
“Certainly there is something very deviant in these black males that have this mass dysfunction on such a grand scale. Why are black females not connecting the dots? The “black community” is a lie. You know that phrase. “He’s just not that into you.” The majority of black men are NOT into black women. Otherwise they wouldn’t be gone. They wouldn’t be ridiculing the darker-skinned women. They wouldn’t be flaunting their plantation fantasies in your face. They wouldn’t be telling you that what you want is asking for too much. They wouldn’t make fun of your African features. They wouldn’t be leeching you for every resources you have. Oh sure they want to keep a few of us set aside to use but they’re not honoring or cherishing black women the way we saw with our parents or grandparents. Even then it was sometimes questionable.
So the continued answer to that question is to tell as many black girls as possible to expand their options. The RHA organization is not seeking to empower young girls when by definition they are focused on mothers and sons. Yet, it’s the girls who will get pregnant. Makes you wonder if they really have progress in mind. These girls need to be taught to seek out a wide variety of friends and experiences. To know that they are going to be rejected by some of these DBRs and be grateful. To not let themselves be used by men who despise them. To take the red pill and leave the Matrix. Date differently, mate differently and GET OUT. Rebuild the family structure with MEN (others as applicable) who are ABLE & EAGER to do so.
These DBR black men despise themselves and their blackness. They carry the psychic shame of being the descendants of slaves and don’t want anything to do with black women. They are not hiding the contempt any more. You see it by their actions. Remove the lie and it becomes obvious. There is no community, only a means of trying to tie black women together on a sinking boat. ”
OMG! This is on POINT! The only thing I disagree with is the advocacy of LGBT relationships. IMHO, this is as unnatural and mentally detrimental to the idea of family as is someone advocating single women-headed families. Both are destructive. Otherwise, everything about this post is the most truth I have heard in a very long time. I loved it and am glad someone is ot afraid to be so candid about the state of Black female-male relationships.
@Deidra – IMHO it doesn’t even have to be a man. There are many loving lesbian (and gay) couples that do a wonderful job raising their children. I just think that there needs to be a 2nd person (fully) in the home who is equally invested in seeing the children raised in a safe, loving environment and whose presence models a loving, collaborative relationship between adult caregivers.
I guess was a very fortunate woman a long time ago. Back more than 20 years ago, I had three black men in a row tell me; “Baby, if you looking for that white picket fence isht you need to go get you a white boy. Black men don’t have to get married to get what they want.”
It was an eye-opening experience for me, and one I’ve never forgotten. That’s the one time in my life I’ve actually thought taking advice from a man was a good thing. I suspect they were being unusually straightforward with me because they never thought a black woman would do it. I think many black men are convinced that because they hold black women of a certain phenotype in contempt, other men will do so as well. That hasn’t been my experience, fortunately. I’ve always been pragmatic and I knew that men of other races had approached me before, so I just started taking advantage of those opportunities. I refuse to be held hostage and deprived of my dreams because of someone else’s agenda. Many of these black men are on a perpetual hunt for sex. They’re not interested in forming families or really building anything. It would be wise for black women to understand this and act accordingly. Fortunately, for those of us who are marriage-minded, African-American males make up only a tiny percentage of the men on this planet, or even of the men in this country! To me, this was the most exciting realization. And man, when we got the internet, it was like some kind of smorgasbord. I was on in an instant, and found my husband within a matter of weeks. It’s not that hard and not that complicated, but you do have to let go of some pre-conceived notions. You’re not interested in ‘groups’ of men and whatever mindset they might have. After all, unless you’re on that polyandry tip, you only need one!
“IMHO, this is as unnatural and mentally detrimental to the idea of family as is someone advocating single women-headed families.”
Do you have any studies that support this? I haven’t seen any and would be interested in reviewing the data. Considering that most black children are dealing with the horrendous impact of having NO DADDIES, I find it hard to believe that having TWO DADDIES would not be to their benefit.
Sis. Gina, I realize this thread is very long, but I really appreciate your blog; why? Because I’m 52 y.o., never-married, no children, never-been-pregnant. I have a few sista-friends (and even fewer brotha-friends) who are in my age group, single, no-children as well. To say we are considered odd by some is an undertstatement. When people ask me, “why don’t you have children?” or “why aren’t you married?”, I reply that I never wanted to be a single mother as a result of having children outside of marriage and as a domestic terrorism(violence) survivor, I never again wanted to settle for less than I knew I deserved in a relationship. These are conscious decisions I made as a thinking adult. (Plus, I saw how my widowed mom struggled to raise us kids after dad passed.)
I’m simply saying here I appreciate your blog because as you and others have said, we have conversations here on your blog that do not always happen at church, club meetings, in the barber and beauty/nail salons, civic associations, etc. THESE CONVERSATIONS SHOULD BE HAPPENING MORE OFTEN AMONG OUR PEOPLE. You would think that me and my sista and brotha friends would be more respected by some “progressive” sisters and brothers for our adult, responsible decisions that did not lead us to contributing unnecessarily to all the various negative statistics, but unfortunately, we are not. But we lead full, vibrant, rewarding lives without all the trauma-n-drama we see with some of our friends and family members. I just want to say THANKS AND GOD BLESS YOU for the affirmation!
I’m not sure that raising a child in a same-sex marriage/relationship is the same as raising a child in a hetero marriage. The child is getting 2 of the same (i.e., male-male or female-female) influences, rather than the male/female differentials of a hetero couple. Yes, it’s better to have 2 people carrying the load than just 1 person, but the child of the same-sex relationship may be losing something, especially if the child is of the opposite gender than the same sex couple. This is just a personal opinion – I have not done any research to prove or disprove this.
Good post but I’ll go ahead and take on the blanket characterization of black men. There are no black men without black women. We are two sides of the same coin. The issues that have created a scenario of men leaving the household have created negative scenarios by black women as well. We are all damaged by our history as well as present realities that affect blacks in particular and Americans in general.
I know good and well that a lot of black women would abandon their children if they could do so without carrying them to term or having a medical procedure. These are the children you see raised by their grandmothers (or great-grandmothers) it’s sad. Many of these mothers are absent from their children’s lives even while their children are standing there looking at them. You think a white man would want some of these damaged individuals as wives?
If you say there is no black community then who are you talking to? and why? Why blog about issues facing “our daughters” if there is no community anyway. Why not talk about issues facing the women of Gaza? Or Japan? Your concern indicates kinship. No one can upset you as much as family.
While I don’t think it’s “wrong” to marry someone outside your race if they have the qualities you seek, interracial dating is not the solution to our problems. Chasing white men cause they’re not black is no better than chasing white women because they’re not black. Black man + black woman = black baby. That is a black family. Any other combination is something else. Call it what you will. We need to figure out ways to strengthen the family not run from it.
@Lex Dras, I was hesitant to respond seeing that this thread is increasing every thirty minutes but I have to mention; I do believe in the “takes a village to raise a child” theory; there are some in that village that are enablers and I’ll say why? I know women with many kids different baby daddies. Everytime I look up she’s at the club, hopping in and out of cars, traveling around town chasing men and you ask them were are the children and It’s always that classic answer “Oh she/they/he is at their grandma’s house!” This type of nonsense right here is when these so-call supportive enablers have to draw the line and tell these women to take care of your own child(ren) the party is over.
@Sandra – I’m not sure that we can assume that a gay or lesbian couple = two people providing the same influence. That assumption is built upon the premise that ALL women provide identical influences upon their children, as do all men. I would think that in same-sex relationships, as in hetero, the two individuals would generally have different strengths, perspectives, abilities, etc. For example, and to play upon the usual stereotypes, one dad might be nurturing and at home in the kitchen, while the other is in his workshop or under the hood of the car.
But I really don’t want to sidetrack the conversation. Let’s get folks in the community to embrace a two-parent ideal first, and then MAYBE we can work on getting folks to understand that a man and a woman ain’t the only way to achieve that ideal. Let’s get folks to step bravely into 1950 before we get all 2009 on them.
@ gem
But we do punish these kids. Wasn’t it just a few weeks ago that we had roland martin talking about witholding blessings from children because of their absentee daddies? Just because their parents have punished them doesn’t mean we don’t as well. 40 percent of chilndren in this country are born out of wedlock across all races. If we don’t have the policies in place that make their lives easier we are doing ourselves a great disservice. In our quest to promote marraige and fatherhood, we have to make sure children don’t carry the burden of bringing about much needed change. Its not their cross to bear. That’s the point I was trying to make.
In addition, we need have more frank discussions of marriage and making it work for woman. Men and woman don’t get married for the same reasons they did hundreds of years ago which is probobly a good thing–for woman in particular. Therefore we need to have more real discussions of what woman should expect in a marraige and what fatherhood means when men move past just being hunters and gatherers. I believe many people have very unrealistic expectations of marraige and if we can promote more healthy, realistic images of black men and woman who are married and co-parenting succesfully it would be a great improvement.
Also I’m of the “it takes a village” belief and while I grew up with both parents in the home, I didn’t grow up with grandma downstairs because of distance. I envy my friends that did. The more responsible adults kids have in their network the better.
Show me the study that says that the poverty rates for single adult households are equal to those of two adult households?
Just because some folks are apathetic doesn’t mean others aren’t.
Sigh.
Are there as many poor homes with two adults as single adults..no.
Are there plenty of homes with working adults that are poor and working class…yes…do their kids suffer the EXACT SAME ISSUES as poor kids…YES.
That’s the point.
Another study has found that it isn’t marriage that will help low income women but EDUCATION…that leads to job opportunities that take them out of poverty and poor neighborhoods and poor schools…that’s real.
I ddin’t say I was apathetic.
I also have read GOBS of literature from FAIR and NOT SO FAIR sources on this subject.
From the recent Pew research survey to the study that actually talked to low income single women about marriage.
And the issue is still the same:
1. Poor people marrying DOES not inoculate a child from poverty and it’s ills.
2. Divorce is MUCH HIGHER among the poor
3. Until very recently most social service (welfare) PENALIZED women who were married.
4. The highest barrier to marriage among low income people is that MAN’S INCOME.
Women (in general) won’t marry a man who is chronically unemployed and under-employed.
And many men don’t feel like they are in a position to marry when they can’t provide financially.
With the high rates of imprisonment of black males – that makes a significant portion of the black male population unemployable.
The lack of marriage isn’t the problem. It’s a symptom of a larger problem. You fix that problem and you MAY have a chance to fix the other.
And the one thing that folk keep forgetting is – people will not forgo having kids for lack of a spouse.
Not going to happen…especially if the idea is to marry a quality spouse, but how do you do that when in most major cities 45% of the black female population is unemployed and 50% of the black male population is unemployed.
People aren’t going to get married that don’t have jobs.
They may have kids..but they definitely won’t say ‘I do.”
@iman the “Village” USED to be called family! You can’t demand that the “Village” raise children and then turn around and bomb the village. How the heck to you maintain the “village” when you do everything in your power to undermine the social ties that created the village. We’re cannibalizing ourselves in the name of FALSE COMPASSION. Nobody on this thread talked about punishing children. NOT. A. SINGLE. PERSON. Trying to portray people who are advocating to protect, defend and promote the very institution you look to to raise children as being “punishers” of children is an obfuscation and redirection technique.
@JJ again, obfuscation and redirection. You’ve attempted to steer the discussion away from the issue of CHILD ABANDONMENT to marriage. Two separate issues, as I have pointed out completely. Okay, people are poor so they don’t get married. Explain the whole people are poor, they have indiscriminate sex and then ABANDON their children. Poor men don’t inherently abandon their children. Even a man who doesn’t have a job can go down to the river and catch fish to put food on the table.
So again I’mma say this one. more. time. CHILD ABANDONMENT is BAD and IMMORAL and due to a FAILURE to take RESPONSIBILITY for your progeny. Now throw that in the statistics machine.
@ #53 LorMarie
You hit the nail on the head in saying, “…the best testament to single motherhood are the children of such women.” Well, I have those numbers and they look EXTREMELY dismal!
@ #54 Khadija
It is so tremendously refreshing to hear individuals thinking the way I do about what is salvageable and what is not.
@ #55 shell
When I first wrote about, “What type of man would marry a woman with children out-of-wedlock,” people laughed because they thought I was joking! Women in the situation basically cussed-me-out but when confronted with the evidence, they could not refute it! The Proof is in the Pudding!
@ #77 dcrosby
When you said, “…black women would abandon their children if they could do so…” actually already do! You are right in that Black Women leave the kid AT Grandmom’s or GreatGrandmom’s house; women, excuse me, of the female persuasion, ain’t-worth-a-da**!
In my work(s), I always ask, “Do you believe Illegitimate Births / Abandonment is a problem in the Black Community (this country)? Let me ask all of you, pick one: ABORTION, ADOPTION, ABANDONMENT. Which is worse? Which is best? You got to choose one! There ain’t no sitting this one out! It’s been said that stupid people get their decisions made for them. What are you? I am not going to discuss what the first 3 A’s are here but know that if they were adhered to, the last 3 A’s (above) would not be an issue.
ABANDONMENT is far worse than anything by far. Ever heard of a Mercy-Killing? Believe me, you are doing the target a favor! Physically absent is a joke in comparison to the psychological, irreparable, viral devastation this act causes that will inevitably infect everything and everyone that child will touch throughout its life! The mother’s choice! She did that!! This f***-up could have been stopped!!!
Abortion? Oh, that’s too inhuman and immoral. Giving-up a child up for Adoption? …their stupid a** can’t do that; who could raise the child better than them? Abandonment? Not a problem, yea, let’s do that! Grandmom will take care of it! And we wonder why we have a problem?? MY GOD PEOPLE!!! This issue REALLY, REALLY gets-my-goat!! If we don’t start none (the illegitimate birth to begin with), won’t be none (a problem that will surely perpetuate into the foreseeable future!)! E-MAIL ME!!!!! BLOG ME!!!! WE CAN TALK ABOUT THIS ALL DAY!!
I am EXTREMELY expressive in what I call women who DECIDE to move forward with the CHOICE of deliberately bringing a child into the world when they know in advance that the biological male in question is worthless!!! As our host has said, it is no longer about the woman, it is now about the child who is now [explicative] because of the woman’s utter ignorance and stupidity!! DA** THIS BURNS ME UP!
@ #78 LD
When you said, “This type of nonsense right here… enablers have to draw the line and tell these women to take care of your own child(ren)….” And I say from your lips to God’s ears, I wish this would happen. It will not! It will not because Grandmom and Greatgrandmom are damaged too!! Where do you think the incompetent bi*** got it from?! G**, I hate to say this but I got to do it anyway!! “It’s Mama’s Fault!”
I know good and well that a lot of black women would abandon their children if they could do so without carrying them to term or having a medical procedure. These are the children you see raised by their grandmothers (or great-grandmothers) it’s sad. Many of these mothers are absent from their children’s lives even while their children are standing there looking at them. You think a white man would want some of these damaged individuals as wives?
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GET REAL! PU-LEEZ!
Men from cultures of marriage/family/community DO NOT stop acting as protectors, providers, and leaders because of the condition of the mother. Men from cultures of marriage/family/community do not wait for the women to stand up, and do anything—they come together with the men within their own families, and communities to handle whatever needs to be handled. Men from other cultures would not leave the child with grandparents, but would go out and *REMARRY* another woman—and CONTINUE to act as a protector, provider, and leader.
It doesn’t matter what the other parent does, it does not negate or excuse the failure to care for your offspring. Men from other cultures do not expect the women to raise children alone and THEY DO NOT EXPECT TO RAISE CHILDREN BY THEMSELVES ALONE-THE ALWAYS REMARRY.
Other cultures do not accept ***ANY*** gender raising children alone.
We don’t have a culture of marriage/family/community.
Bottom line. End of story.
While I don’t think its “wrong” to marry someone outside your race if they have the qualities you seek, interracial dating is not the solution to our problems. Chasing white men because they’re not black is no better than chasing white women because they’re not black. Black man + black woman = black baby. That is a black family. Any other combination is something else. Call it what you will. We need to figure out ways to strengthen the family not run from it.
___________________________________________
No black woman empowerment blogger is saying that marrying ANY white or non-black American man will erase all of your hurt’s and pain—make your problems go away. No black woman empowerment blogger is saying that the skin tone of a white man or non-black American man is going to resolve the family crisis or distress that black women are in.
Based off RESULTS, it’s clear that AA’s as a whole don’t or no longer have an empowering, thriving culture. We DON’T have a culture of marriage, and family.
Black women DESERVE to have the same opportunities for marriage, and children as other women. We are NOT unworthy, we are NOT un-deserving. Black woman empowerment bloggers regularly inform their readers/followers to screen and vet ALL men. This statement you’re making is fallacious, and misrepresents what the majority of MAINSTREAM empowerment bloggers are saying.
Black women empowerment bloggers/activist are encouraging black women to marry people who have a sound, safe, healthy, and intact CULTURE of marriage/family—THE FACT THAT OOW has now been normalized, and people are fighting those who are advocating a marriage/family culture only reinforces the reality that we don’t have a culture anymore. This is about CULTURE, VALUES, BELIEFS, and PARADIMGS—NOT ABOUT SKIN SHADES OF ANY HUMAN BEING.
“Another study has found that it isn’t marriage that will help low income women but EDUCATION…that leads to job opportunities that take them out of poverty and poor neighborhoods and poor schools…that’s real.”
I agree that education is always a tool for advancement. But my agreement ends there.
Being inter-culturally married for 7 years has taught me MANY lessons about how ABNORMAL my people have become. Other people of color who are immigrants ARE married. They may be poor, working class, or middle class. The majority of their children don’t share the same statistics with our ethnic community BECAUSE they have a culture of marriage/family/community.
Marriage is NOT just a piece of paper. Even modernized versions of marriage and family are not just a piece of paper. This is a very COMMON belief among the masses of AA’s—it’s just a piece of paper, you can have all that you have in a marriage in a non-registered partnership. Your children can all the same rights as a child in a marriage.
Oh, really? States with mandatory DNA testing for OOW children don’t seem to indicate this?
There are many components to marriage (be they traditional or modern) other than just se
“The lack of marriage isn’t the problem. It’s a symptom of a larger problem. You fix that problem and you MAY have a chance to fix the other.”
_____________________________________________
It’s too late to fix the problem. Our relationships with one another are damaged beyond repair. *Thinking* black women would be better off finding men from other intact cultures.
And by the way, non-white immigrant men deal with some of the SAME stresses, and strains as BM but have chosen NOT to handle the situation by demoralizing, denigrating, hating, shaming, blaming, neglecting, abandoning, and talking bad about in the company of the world black women and children.
Other non-white immigrant men have chosen to cope, and manage racism, classism, modernism, and the day in and day out strain from work/family maintenance differently.
Black men are NOT the only men ON THE PLANET who are going through things, WE ALL ARE going through things.
The pity party is OVER, and the game is UP
obfuscation and redirection. You’ve attempted to steer the discussion away from the issue of CHILD ABANDONMENT to marriage.
The bulk of the post and comments have been about marriage and the “two parent” household.
No misdirection. Commenting on what’s been said.
Child abandonment and marraige go hand in hand…in most cases…even the best of fathers under the best of circumstances often have their kids every other weekend and maybe once during the week if they are not the custodial parent.
If the man isn’t in a position to provide for a family what makes you think he’s going to be able to provide for his child (the unemployment issue remains) and navigate with a woman he may or may not still be involved with.
They are the same damn issue…anyone looking at the situation objectively can see that.
The same issues that cause a man to walk away from marrying the mother are the same issues that have him walk away from the child.
How many women you know are going to let the ex-con father hang out with the kids?
How many women you know are going to take the kids to see the father while he’s locked up?
How many women you know are not going to give a man HELL for not contributing to his kids even if that man is unemployed?
How many men are going to be around to hear how they don’t have any money and why aren’t they caring for their kids?
This issue isn’t as simplistic as most want to make it. Where we are right now has been 30/40 years in the making…and now folk want to be up in arms about it.
The marriage/child abandonment issues aren’t the problem…the problem is most of those things I mentioned before…the marriage/child abandonment issues are the result.
Bottom line.
An we can we please stop this marry white men tirade. For a certain CLASS of woman that is a real option.
For Sheniqua in the hood not so much.
People date and marry in their class/socio-econmic spectrum. So ultimately you are going to date and mate with the men/women available to you.
Yes – upper class and to a lesser extent middle class black women are in a position to expand their marriage options.
Most other black women are not and considering that the BULK of black America – 65/85% are working class or poor then the women this applies to are a small percentage.
Real world solutions for everyday black folk are ideal…but I really don’t think most upper class black women need to be told that they can date white men…some middle class back women may need to hear it…but really the issues being discussed here mainly apply to the working class/poor set…not your average middle class/upper middle class black woman.
You’re not going to set the clock back 40 years. And you’re not going to convince a bunch of folk living on the fringes that marriage is going to save them
You can however aid in the educational/employment opportunities available to that set, specifically the children and then can address the other issues.
The behaviour of the adults is irrelevant once the kids are in the picture…getting the kids to a better a point is where the real focus should lie.
I don’t believe that poor men inherently abandon their children, but I do think some men would feel useless to their kids if they couldn’t provide for them. How many folks know men who work everyday and live at home with their kids but are emotionally unavailable? Father equals money to a lot of people, men and women.
And to be honest, I think if you truly want to reach these women the spokesperson has to be married with children. If you are not married and don’t have any children these women ain’t tryin to hear you. Its most little girls dream to have a man (maybe not a husband) but a man and some kids.
Some even take issue with Oprah b/c with all that money and accomplishments she has no children.
Be sure to watch the tone of how you talk to folks also, if you sound like you are on some black men hate black women tirade you will be immediately tuned out.
And I still don’t understand that divestment stuff? Like are bw supposed to moved to Utah and supposedly will be welcomed w/ open arms?
My last 2 paragraphs were directed at the writer of the post not Gina.
Being inter-culturally married for 7 years has taught me MANY lessons about how ABNORMAL my people have become. Other people of color who are immigrants ARE married. They may be poor, working class, or middle class. The majority of their children don’t share the same statistics with our ethnic community BECAUSE they have a culture of marriage/family/community.
Marriage is NOT just a piece of paper. Even modernized versions of marriage and family are not just a piece of paper. This is a very COMMON belief among the masses of AA’s—it’s just a piece of paper, you can have all that you have in a marriage in a non-registered partnership.
What you’re talking about doesn’t even apply to this conversation.
No one is saying marriage is just a piece of paper.
Who said that?
If you want to push marriage fine, but ultimately until you address the REAL issues on WHY folk don’t get married…then everything else is moot.
There are actual studies that talked (gosh what a nifty idea) to low income single mother on WHY they aren’t married and the biggest factor (I’ll say it again) is how employable the man is.
The one woman in the group who was going to marry her child’s father was the only woman who’s guy made a solid income – he had recently become a fireman.
The women also said that in most cases the men didn’t start off abandoning the children, but the pressures of not being able to adequately provide an the constant bickering that happened b/c of that inability led to the split and them not being around.
This isn’t rocket science.
Marriage doesn’t happen in a vacum.
It’s a social construct that has rules that need to be in play to occur.
Finances is one of the biggest.
As far as why more well off black men don’t marry – it’s a numbers game pure and simple.
When there are more women then men, the men have no good reason to settle down…or they can postpone it whereas women have eggs that aren’t too time friendly.
This isn’t brain surgery.
Fix one issue, you have a shot at the other.
Don’t address the underlying issues…welll…you will get what you have now.
@ gem
Nowhere did I state that we need undermine social ties, nor did I state that people who defend marriage and family are punishers of children. It think I was pretty clear when I stated that “we”, meaning society at large punishes children when we don’t have policies in place that make life more fruitful for them. My original example was family accomodation in the workplace. A help to all parents, especially those who are single. I’m just trying to think past the individual level and figure out how do we help make life better for children in general, because that is my only motivation in relation to this issue. Its not false compasion.
It is possible to promote responsible parenting and work towards creating better support structures for woman and families. This doesn’t undermine family. If done properly it should strengthen family. In my neighborhood there is a family support center that helps struggling families access mental health care in addition to other things. These are real solutions that help children have that village. These don’t undermine marriage or family. So much of this discussion is like the BET discussion. The people who know better are just confirming that fact with like minds.
Also this is not obfuscation or redirection. I have no interest in changing your conversation or derailing your efforts. I grew up in a two parent home and had a great childhood. I want that for every child. Injecting the needs of existing children being raised by single parents is no more a redirection that injecting IR dating. Also, there individuals who children born out of wedlock and roland martin was a personal example Just because that doesn’t apply to you personally, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
@JJ A) i don’t think they are advocating marrying a specific group of men. B) the dating options target audience isn’t Sheniqua. C) You act as if people have been promoting marriage choice for 40 years. This is all a fairly new phenomenon to me. D) I’m sure they’ll stop when you stop discounting the value of marriage.
@naima As I understand it “divestment” can be both physical and mental. No, I don’t think divestment proponents (I haven’t totally bought into the concept)are pushing moving out of entire States, just neighborhoods.
I have already commented earlier on the need to frame the argument in ways that don’t trigger an instant defensive response.
Here however, I’m perfectly comfortable waging WHOLESALE WAR on people who want to promote policies and programs that undermine the well being of Black women and girls. They should be rebuked.
^ somehow I didn’t attach my name to the above comment. My screen is wacky.
A) i don’t think they are advocating marrying a specific group of men. B) the dating options target audience isn’t Sheniqua. C) You act as if people have been promoting marriage choice for 40 years. This is all a fairly new phenomenon to me. D) I’m sure they’ll stop when you stop discounting the value of marriage.
Sigh.
You have got to be the most literal person I met. Marry “other” than and yes many out right advocate white as they are the largest available group of men as they tell it.
I didn’t discount the value of marriage.
I said having two poor folks marry isn’t going to solve any of the problems faced by most poor people…and study after study has borne that out.
If the issue is about giving children a better life – them that’s a conversation where marriage is only a small part for those children living on the margins.
And they’re definitely not pushing IR ’cause of me. That ish started long before I commented.
Conflating two issues – the lack of marriage in the black community and IR – has never made any sense to me.
Sheniqua in the hood is whose kids are suffering – she’s not likely to marry IR.
Tasha with the MBA isn’t likely to have kids out of wedlock so there isn’t a child abandonment issue for her.
Tasha probably has a good option to marry outside of her race – if she’s interested she should take it, if marriage an chilren is what she wants.
But IR is NOT the answer to the child abandonment issues this convo is supposedly about…which was my point.
Also this is not obfuscation or redirection. I have no interest in changing your conversation or derailing your efforts. I grew up in a two parent home and had a great childhood. I want that for every child. Injecting the needs of existing children being raised by single parents is no more a redirection that injecting IR dating. Also, there individuals who children born out of wedlock and roland martin was a personal example Just because that doesn’t apply to you personally, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
AMEN!
How is it talking about marriage or how to strengthen ALL families for the betterment of the children misdirection, but talking about IR is not?
You said this was about child abandonment NOT go marry a white or other man.
There are actual studies that talked (gosh what a nifty idea) to low income single mother on WHY they aren’t married and the biggest factor (I’ll say it again) is how employable the man is.
__________________________________________
Okay, but to me, there is underlying assumption that if black men were employable, and financially stable that they would magically reverse that 83% epidemic in a heart beat. I’m not buying it. I do believe our relationship with each other is damaged beyond repair because black men have chosen to cope abnormally with the same stresses other groups of men from different cultures, in different nations—including famine stricken, warzones cope with their struggle. If your community is being attacked, the way to cope with the mental pressure is NOT by demoralizing, denigrating, hating, shaming, blaming, neglecting, abandoning, and talking bad about in the company of the world black women and children.
*** To the same thing over, and over again while expecting a different result is INSANITY***
This way of coping with racism, classim, modernism, strain, and economic/political warfare attacks IS NOT WORKING. You CAN’T change what you don’t acknowledge.
The women also said that in most cases the men didn’t start off abandoning the children, but the pressures of not being able to adequately provide an the constant bickering that happened b/c of that inability led to the split and them not being around.
_____________________________________________
Again, as I previously stated, there are other men of color who are confronted with the same degree (some times worse Xenophobia) of racism, classism, modernism, and the strain of maintaining a job and family as black American men. Black American men are not the only people in this nation, or Europe, or Canada who are struggling against oppression. Other non-black American men have made choices that indicate they want to protect, provide, and lead their own women—be it migrating clear across the earth risking life and limb, joining their nations military, fighting other groups of people for land and resources or what- ever else, they will go through*** DRASTIC*** measures to lead, protect, and provide for their women and children. The majority of black men are not doing this, don’t plan to do this, and are especially uninterested in doing it for black women and children.
An we can we please stop this marry white men tirade. For a certain CLASS of woman that is a real option.
__________________________________________
You are again deliberately MISREPRESENTING the message of mainstream black woman activists. This is not about running to a skin shade or a look. It’s about CULTURE*VALUES*SYSTEMS*PARADIMGS. No mainstream activist is telling black women to even limit themselves to white men on any continent rather to expand their options to include MEN WHO HAVE NOT HAD THEIR NATURAL DISPOSITONS BLUNTED BY SELF INFLICTED SUFFERING.
The same issues that cause a man to walk away from marrying the mother are the same issues that have him walk away from the child.
_____________________________________________
Men who have not had their natural disposition blunted to lead, protect, and provide don’t cop out or poop out over setbacks, competition, trials and tribulations, or warfare. Real men, who have not had their natural disposition blunted, will naturally STAND UP AND FIGHT for ANY resources or support. They will not sit back, and let others aggress their women and children.
The real deal is that men who walk away from their children blaming the mother (even if the woman is crazy) are not functioning in their natural state. Real men are territorial, and wouldn’t even leave the woman with the child: again he’d stay with her or remarry but his children would ALWAYS be with HIM.
This is NOT about a lack of resources:
There first, and foremost has to be a DESIRE or YEARNING from the man to WANT to lead, protect, and provide. There first, and foremost, must be a motivation, and reward for him to do so. This desire, yearning, and knowing COMES FROM WITHIN ones self—just like mothers naturally respond to crying babies—just like babies can discern their mothers voice OUT OF MANY other women’s voice.
Until the nature is healed, reformed, or what ever—it is TOO LATE.
This comes from WITHIN –and only these men or other men who haven’t had their natural disposition blunted can HEAL this.
HEALING THIS will not come about by demoralizing, denigrating, hating, shaming, blaming, neglecting, abandoning, and talking bad about in the company of the world black women and children.
What we NOW see in the black community IS MAN’S INHUMANITY—LITERALLY SPEAKING—TO WOMAN AND HER CHILDREN.
Miriam
p.s. AND I DO BELONG in this conversation YOU aren’t going to silence me.
Pecola, I was referring to male/female differences, not to differences in personality/disposition, etc. in my comment comparing same-sex couples to hetero couples.
“There are actual studies that talked (gosh what a nifty idea) to low income single mother on WHY they aren’t married and the biggest factor (I’ll say it again) is how employable the man is.”
THAN WHY ARE THEY HAVING BABIES WITH THESE MEN? That’s what I don’t understand. Shouldn’t that have been pre-evaluated before sex? If you can’t take care of your own as a woman, why are going to have a baby with a man who can’t take care of his own either?
Further, this doesn’t just apply to poor blacks either- wealthy blacks are in baby mama/daddy situations too so, how do these same statistics apply to them? This is a cultural issue that is ENDORSED by the black community. It is a mindset that marriage is irrelevant that has to be addressed and changed- and as Miriam alluded, it is ABNORMAL.
“But IR is NOT the answer to the child abandonment issues this convo is supposedly about…which was my point.”
Interracial relationships (black/non-black) is not the answer to the child abandonment issue nor is Intraracial relationships (black/black).
The ONLY answer to the child abandonment issue is women choosing more wisely (vetting to the best of ones ability, watching closely how the man – and his male relatives – relates to the women in his family, etc…) BEFORE a child is even brought into the equation. Using birth-control if one can’t economically provide for a child. Dealing ONLY with marriage minded men to begin with. Etc…
And these simple tips should hold true regardless of the “race” of the man. Whether the man is white, black, or other.
Basically having the SAME high standards across the board when dealing with men period.
@Miriam
What the hell are you going thru?
No one said you didn’t belong in this conversation.
I didn’t say it was a magical fix. I said it’s a root cause and if you fix that you can begin to fix the other.
And i said a certain Class of women (i.e. socio-economic) NOT skin color, shade etc.
You’re projecting it’s not pretty.
@Zabeth
THAN WHY ARE THEY HAVING BABIES WITH THESE MEN?
What part of people aren’t going to forgo parenthood b/c of lack of a spouse.
Upperclass black women are and what happens? They aren’t having kids so future generations of black folk are largely coming from the lower/under educated classes.
Tell me that’s a good thing.
Further, this doesn’t just apply to poor blacks either- wealthy blacks are in baby mama/daddy situations too so, how do these same statistics apply to them? This is a cultural issue that is ENDORSED by the black community.
Um…entertainers and athletes don’t count.
I don’t know too many middle/upper class women who are on some “Ooooh let me get knocked up” tip.
Many i know and know of either don’t have kids, adopt, artificially inseminate or marry for the sake of marrying so they can pop out some babies.
But not too many go the OOW…route.
Okay, but to me, there is underlying assumption that if black men were employable, and financially stable that they would magically reverse that 83% epidemic in a heart beat. I’m not buying it.
This is the argument set forth by bell hooks in her book ‘Aint I a woman’. She gives reasons why she believes that it is just a comforting fantasy that if black men had resources, they would share these with black women and children.
even without bell hooks, you just need to look around to the attitudes and actions of black men who do have resources and make your own deductions.
Anyway some girls need their fantasies I guess…
Making excuses for bad decisions and abnormal behavior have never solved and will not solve the problem. The same arguments being made for why it’s unrealistic to expect people to get married and/or stop having OOW babies are used by addicts who want to continue doing what they’re doing because it’s easier and avoids facing the pain of their problems and why they’re addicts. People who want to be free learn that they have to face the pain of looking at themselves and their behavior in order to overcome the weaknesses that otherwise keep them enslaved. There is no shortcut or free lunch here. We either face the problem and do what’s necessary to regain our health, or we keep going down to the inevitable death that will befall addicts who don’t confront their behavior. I have no patience anymore for excuses, no matter how many studies are cited to “justify” them. This much I have learned in 49 years.
We either face the problem and do what’s necessary to regain our health, or we keep going down to the inevitable death that will befall addicts who don’t confront their behavior.
I feel the same way…which is why I deal in reality not a wish list.
Many of you have an agenda.
The IR issue and the marriage/child abandonment issue are NOT one and the same.
The issues affect different groups of women with different problems.
If you can’t understand that then that’s your problem.
even without bell hooks, you just need to look around to the attitudes and actions of black men who do have resources and make your own deductions.
As mentioned earlier this isn’t a problem that just started…and as mentioned earlier it’s a numbers game in hte black community.
Men with resources don’t have to marry…because for reasons that have already been mentioned ad nauseaum there are more eligible women than men.
“What part of people aren’t going to forgo parenthood b/c of lack of a spouse.”
Obfuscation. That wasn’t my question. My question wasn’t about lack of a spouse, my question was why have a baby with a man YOU KNOW cannot hold down a job and will therefore be an unsuitable parent for your child? The women from the study you cited didn’t artificially inseminate, they did not not have mates they picked immature and dysfunctional men.
“Upperclass black women are and what happens? They aren’t having kids so future generations of black folk are largely coming from the lower/under educated classes.
Tell me that’s a good thing.”
Would it be better for middle and upper middle class women to have children OOW too?
The out of wedlock dilemma goes back to an abandonment of traditional family values. We (it’s not just black people, but that’s who I am concerned about) have accepted the abnormal as being normal. Everywhere you look out of wedlock pregnancies are being celebrated. One celebrity after another is considered a herorine for accomplishing “something” (having a baby). I’m sorry, but a godly marriage is ordained by god, and if the couple is able they can be fruitful and multiply. This is the way God ordained family (man, woman, children (if they so choose)).
This is a cultural issue that is ENDORSED by the black community
We can’t be the only group of people that will preserve, protect and DEFEND dysfunction instead of preserving protecting and defending our safety net… and by safety net, I mean families.
Would it be better for middle and upper middle class women to have children OOW too?
And TRUST that this might be the last generation of “professional” Black women that get away with this. We grew up believing the dream. Its real hard to get through grad and professional school with a baby on the hip. So actually, I predict the numbers of Black women with professional degrees going DOWN as the OWW rate goes up.
@gina,
With the number of young black women getting pregnant right after high school, the number of black women with college degrees will be going down, also. College is becoming more and more expense and so is child care. I see a lot young black women realizing that myth of having a baby can’t stop you is just that a ‘myth’. Even with the growth of online degrees, which are very expensive and rely on work experience, many of our young sisters will be in for a huge surprise when they find out they can’t work full-time, study, pay rent, and take care of a baby.
Obfuscation. That wasn’t my question. My question wasn’t about lack of a spouse, my question was why have a baby with a man YOU KNOW cannot hold down a job and will therefore be an unsuitable parent for your child?
No it’s not.
People keep asking why as if wanting a child isn’t a normal thing regardless of your socio-economic situation.
The women (rightly or wrongly) believe things will change/he will be successful…in some cases he started off with a “good” job was laid off and couldn’t find another…there are any number of reasons, but they all boil down to people want kids and aren’t going to forgo that for lack of a spouse.
No one’s suggesting Middle/upper class women have kids out of wedlock…I’m saying their not having children isn’t exactly beneficial as well (cue the IR enthusiasts)
That group of women benefits from the IR talk as it is wise to date the men who are available to you and for many black women they live and work in all/prdominantly white environments.
And TRUST that this might be the last generation of “professional” Black women that get away with this. We grew up believing the dream. Its real hard to get through grad and professional school with a baby on the hip. So actually, I predict the numbers of Black women with professional degrees going DOWN as the OWW rate goes up.
Doubt it.
Getting through grad with a baby isn’t that difficult…med/law school maybe but everything else not so much.
The more likely reality is that professional black women will adopt/artificially inseminate when they get settled in their careers.
Same as now, but more so.
I see a lot young black women realizing that myth of having a baby can’t stop you is just that a ‘myth’. Even with the growth of online degrees, which are very expensive and rely on work experience, many of our young sisters will be in for a huge surprise when they find out they can’t work full-time, study, pay rent, and take care of a baby.
It’s not a myth…my cousin is a dentist and she had her son while completing dental school…I STAARTED grad school when my daughter was 5 weeks old…it’s just a matter of scheduling, priorities and time.
Babies aren’t an excuse not to get an education…anybody schilling that is lying
MOST women getting grad/professional degrees don’t have babies so it’s a moot point anyway.
“There are actual studies that talked (gosh what a nifty idea) to low income single mother on WHY they aren’t married and the biggest factor (I’ll say it again) is how employable the man is.”
Do you really believe this? I spent fifteen years talking to low-income single moms and recognize an okey dokie when I see one. They didn’t think about dude’s income before they laid up and got pregnant by him, now all of a sudden they’re doing a Quick-books spreadsheet to assess his viability as a husband? Yeah right! If dude even suggested anything like marriage they’d be on him so fast he’d have windburn. They’re not getting married because these men don’t want to. These men don’t want to and don’t have to because there are no cultural or societal norms that says that they have to.
So they’re wandering about broadcasting their seed like all primates that have no cultural norms to regulate their behavior. Don’t you think most men would behave this way if they could get away with it? Yeah, they would, but they don’t because their cultures, their COMMUNITY makes the penalty for behaving this way too high. But in the non-existent black community the behavior is not only condoned, it’s rationalized away. We give them excuses for behaving this way.
I even had a black man on the City Data board tell me that black men are more promiscuous because they were trained to be that way during slavery. Never mind the question of whether black men are actually more promiscuous, why did it never occur to that fool that black men’s alleged inability to control their genitalia was used as a justification for castration? Oh no, he was so fixated on having ‘the white man’ to blame that it never occurred to him that he was lowering black men to a level below even the lowest animals. And the fucknuttery goes on.
now all of a sudden they’re doing a Quick-books spreadsheet to assess his viability as a husband? Yeah right! If dude even suggested anything like marriage they’d be on him so fast he’d have windburn.
Killing me softly. BWHAHA. Do y’all really think people having 6 kids by 7 different people are doing all this rationalizing people are imputing?
@ JJ
I don’t think Black men not supporting their children or families can be solely traced back to lack of work. Or the end of the manufacturing era…it is much deeper than that. And I do believe that even if these men did have funds they still would not support their families.
What we are experiencing in the black community is a complete break down of our value system. No moral code or set of values are being passed down from father to son…because there are few strong capable male role models in our community.
At this point we are 40 years into this cycle, so we are two or three generations removed from those who had core values that would sustain and grow a community.
I for one cannot understand how a grown healthy adult male living in a free capitalist society can say he can not provide for his kids. Many BM are delusional and have been made to believe they should only work for a certain wage. So when some working class BM I know say there are “no jobs”…they mean no high paying union or skilled labor positions.
I live in New York city, if I had multiple OOW kids I would go to Costco buy bottled water at a 10 cents a piece and sell them for a dollar in Central Park, outside stadiums, etc. Sell cut fruit on the corner…and so on. You CAN make money in this city poor Mexican and central American men do it every day and they have wives and families that all live on the small salaries they make.
No one I know looks down upon them…in fact I have great respect for the sacrifices they are willing to make for their families.
The day of high paid skilled labor is over. In New York on construction sites, in large markets, restuarants, even fast food joints that used to have large numbers of young black male employees almost all have been replaced by Mexican and Central Americans.
It seems to me just basic knowledge about hard work, common sense about how to climb the social ladder to provide for the next generation is completely gone.
These men haven’t had the elders to explain to them why selling water on the corner is not “beneath” them. That supporting ones family should supercede one’s pride.
I’m not saying this is a career course but 4 Mexicans will sell flowers on the corner together until they get enough money to pool to open up a flower stand and so on and so on.
In the black community we no longer understand the basics of living..we’re just surviving.
From what I know of the young black women in my high school or soon after who became pregnant there was never any thought that the young man would support the child.
I think our government agencies need to make it very un desireable to receive government monies for OOW children. If you receive an apartment and foos stamps you should be made to work long hours for it….just like working people do.
I also believe Section 8 subsidies should only be given to working people.
If you don’t work and have babies you should get $0! Right now it is too easy to get government aid when you have babies on your own. Therefore many women don’t even consider the men…they have babies because the can….and they want children.
Women are wired to want babies….and without any social conditioning or values in place…you end up with “North Philly”.
Killing me softly. BWHAHA. Do y’all really think people having 6 kids by 7 different people are doing all this rationalizing people are imputing?
All low income single mothers aren’t popping out multiple babies by several different men…all low income men aren’t having six or seven different baby mommas…
*shrugs*
The “black community” didn’t wake up one morning and say “Hey I think I won’t get married and pop out tons of kids indiscriminately.”
There’s a “why” behind it all.
You figure out the why perhaps you can fiix the problem…or you speculate about what the “why” (or ignore it all together) to push whatever agenda you have.
Either there’s an interest in child abandonment or not…or it’s just a “whew those darn silly negros and all their kids.” fest.
Do you really believe this? I spent fifteen years talking to low-income single moms and recognize an okey dokie when I see one. They didn’t think about dude’s income before they laid up and got pregnant by him, now all of a sudden they’re doing a Quick-books spreadsheet to assess his viability as a husband?
That’s not what I said…
I said women won’t MARRY him for a host of reasons one of the main one’s being his lack of a steady (legal) income.
I didn’t say they wouldn’t have is kid..
And once again I will say – a poor woman marrying a poor man is NOT going to benefit her children (or her) in any manner.
Poverty is a mutha whether you’re married or not – oh and marriage doesn’t prevent men from spreading their seed around if they are so inclined to do so….
@knocoutchick
Yeah the Clinton Admin did that – it’s called the welfare to work program…you know what happened – low income kids went hungry, lost aid and were put in undesirable child care scenarios…
The “jobs” many people got still qualified them for assistance.
MOST people getting section 8 work as those are the laws governing the welfare to work program…in most cases folk are still in poverty…no change…
Folk still have kids.
My mother worked for DCFS so I know….and the “money” folk received was like 230$ for 1 child…and if you have a child while on assistance that child won’t be payed for.
The only people draconian social welfare laws hurt are children.
No one else.
So that’s been tried.
Next.
@jj, I am working on my third degree, all while being a single mother. I just got my first Master’s this May and returning to get my second this August. Let’s get real. I waited until my oldest was 15 and paid her to babysit while I took one or two classes a semester(all year round). By the grace of God got a scholarship during my last year, which allowed me to work part-time and go to school full-time. My daughters both participate in cheerleading and gymnastics(thank God for child support), but I know this would not be possible if I they were not a certain age.
You have to tell women the whole story. Who watches your baby while you’re at school. Who pays your rent? Who is going to pay for the daycare. Though I have achieved a lot, I wouldn’t wish my life as a divorced mom, working mother/student on either of my children.
In just one or two generations I can see marked differences in behaviours. It is just so sad to me. I feel we have completely lost our moral core.
I remember older relatives who have since passed who would say things like…”I am not allowing my son back in my house until he holds up his responsibilities as a man and takes care of his children”
I remember older relatives taking 9 year old cousins back to the local store where they had swiped dime candies….and making them pay for the candies AND give it back to the store owner.
Now Granma-ma will defend her triflin’ grandsons til her dying day. Put her house up for bail…get thrown out on the street.
Just awful!
@knockoutchick
U prove my point…people want to speculate about why things are the way they are instead of looking that the real reasons why they are the way the are.
Believe it’s simple a “moral failure” if you like…but once again I say…black folks didn’t wake up one morning and say, “I’m just not going to marry, have multiple babies and not take care of my kids today>”
You have to tell women the whole story. Who watches your baby while you’re at school. Who pays your rent? Who is going to pay for the daycare. Though I have achieved a lot, I wouldn’t wish my life as a divorced mom, working mother/student on either of my children.
Whole Story:
I was 24..
Moved back home when I was 3 months pregnant…Started grad school 7 months pregnant…went back when she was five weeks old…paid my aunt to watch her two days a week…scheduled classes for those days…finished in the allotted 2 years…I write for a living so I work from home…there u have it.
I didn’t say it was easy…I said it was doable. I also said MOST women going to grad/professional school won’t have kids.
I didn’t say it was easy…I said it was doable.
But aren’t we tired of “doable”? I mean Black folks KNOW how to “make do.” Couldn’t eat the finest cuts of meat, they developed soul food. Couldn’t speak freely, they made up Negro Spirituals. The couldn’t’ get married, they came up with jumping the broom. They couldn’t enter certain professions, so they made “do.” With being preachers teachers and nurses. Now we’re telling them to “make do” and “Raise Him Alone”
I lived a certain portion of my life just trying to “make do” it sucks quite frankly and I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone. In fact I’d tell people to AVOID doing so at all costs.
If there are any young Black girls who happen to stumble upon this post years in the future. Please know that my greatest wish for you is that you never have to just “make do.” Sure life happens, unexpected circumstances occur. No one ever promised we would have trouble free lives. However, you weren’t meant to be a mule. You. Weren’t Meant to be a MULE made to carry everybody’s burden.
You have every RIGHT to be a CO-parent. You have every RIGHT to expect and receive assistance from the father of your children in ALL ASPECTS OF THEIR LIVES. You have every RIGHT not to have to work two three different jobs. You have EVERY RIGHT to be unwilling to shoulder the burden of raising a child alone. You are ENTITLED to help from the man who impregnated and don’t let all of this mumbo jumbo and propaganda from Raising Him Alone make you WAIVE YOUR ENTITLEMENT.
LOL.
I’m not “making do..” and to be perfectly honest outside of the first few months of no sleep…it was easy…but i knew if I said that all hell would break loose saying I was glorifying being a single mom.
I’m not.
I made the choice, it wasn’t an accident.
Not a single person here is saying go be a single mom..no one at all…but someone wanted “my take” and so there u have it…
But if you are a single mom you need to here how other folk get it done…and to know that a baby isn’t an excuse not to pursue your dreams/goals…
“And once again I will say – a poor woman marrying a poor man is NOT going to benefit her children (or her) in any manner.”
Say what? Why on earth would you come to that conclusion? For one thing, having two adult parents, regardless of income, is always going to be better than only having one parent. This notion of fathers/husbands as just a paycheck is specious at best.
Fathers/husbands provide far more than just additional income, though, of course, that’s beneficial as well. Gina gave an A-Z checklist, almost none of them involved money.
Then another poster expounded on the benefits of having a husband, even when you don’t have children. I know my husband provides far more than economic benefit. His relationship with our son is absolutely priceless.
Say what? Why on earth would you come to that conclusion? For one thing, having two adult parents, regardless of income, is always going to be better than only having one parent. This notion of fathers/husbands as just a paycheck is specious at best.
No one said they were just paychecks.
But the part about kids borne two married families who are poor suffering the same ills as single parent families who are poor everyone keeps glossing over.
Are their exceptions to this rule…yes.
Does this mean the rule doesn’t apply…no.
If you want to talk about the intrinsic value of maleness that’s one thing.
If you want to talk about how to get women and children out of poverty that’s another and that’s what, “And once again I will say – a poor woman marrying a poor man is NOT going to benefit her children (or her) in any manner” was referring to.
If you want to talk about how to get women and children out of poverty that’s another and that’s what, “And once again I will say – a poor woman marrying a poor man is NOT going to benefit her children (or her) in any manner” was referring to.
Lord have mercy! To get out of poverty
A) Graduate from High School
B) Don’t have children out of wedlock.
C) Don’t get married before the age of 21.
That’s not really all that complicated. You just have to decide you’d rather not do things that increase you likelihood of being broke and having another tiny human being to care for prevents you from having the mobility you need to maneuver out of poverty.
“If you want to talk about how to get women and children out of poverty that’s another and that’s what…”
I thought this conversation was about raising children, not an anti-poverty program. And even if it were, marrying a poor man is certainly more beneficial than trying to raise a child alone. Two parents working together will always benefit a child better than one working alone, if for no other reason than they are there to provide support and back-up.
And from what I’ve observed, even amongst poor families married couples are generally better off if for no other reason than that men typically earn more money than women. Every study I’ve ever seen and certainly evidence of my own experience states that married couple are better off on pretty much every measurable variable as it pertains to child-rearing. This cuts across all socio-economic lines. Even poor folks gain economic and intrinsic benefits from marriage.
@ JJ
“MOST people getting section 8 work as those are the laws governing the welfare to work program…in most cases folk are still in poverty…no change…”
I disagree, I believe there is a BIG difference in seeing your parent work every day for a living rather than waiting on a government check to survive.
But I do think I get where you are going, the working poor mothers are given grinding menial labor jobs that they hate…and the message the kids get seeing mom go to this dreaded job…is work is painful and unpleasant and in adition they are still poor. I get that.
I have a number of friends who own properties in which they have agreements with the city to receive Section 8 tenants….even with working Section 8…it’s a drag but steady income in a recession.
But continuing …when I talk about values…these concepts are passed to our children in many subtle ways….such as seeing a parent take pride in work.
Seeing a father in a loving embrace with his wife.
And so on as Gina has outlined so well.
So the two working parents or two poor working parents who decide to marry provide a model for which the child can build his life.
I might add ….when I talk about our loss of values in the black community, I jump back to that welfare to work mother who is pissed off at the type of job she has to do…and at the fact it takes her away from her children.
There is a HUGE amount of entitlement among ALL Americans, soon we will see that you are not owed a job or a comfortable living space simply by being born in this country. The media images and consumerist culture have led people to believe you deserve everything for nothing.
Well California is broke now….lets see what happens when they stop funding some social programs.
There’s so much going on with this discussion I hardly know which points are most important to make. First off I have to agree with Naima, what’s up with all the IR talk? Are we saying those Black women who have been sleeping around with Black men and having children out of wedlock would behave differently with white men? Really?
Black women have to take repsonsibility for themselves and show love for their children BEFORE having them. Avoiding situations in which you might bring a child into less than favorable conditions is the first act of love. No child has done anything to warrant them not having a mom AND dad from the start. A child DESERVES to at least come into the world surrounded by mother and father. It’s downright selfish of a child-bearing woman to lay with a man who has shown no proof that he wants to be with her beyond that lay.
I am married, with middle school children. It never occurred to me to have children before marriage. I witnessed two of my aunts marry men who didn’t want their previous children. I saw how that warped my cousins who were rejected. Based on that and some other observations, I never wanted children by different men.
My choices were conscious ones that I made for myself, and any possible children I would have. I conducted myself in a way that my choices would come to fruition. We, BW have to stop acting like things “just happen” to us. That was true on the plantation. That’s no longer true. We don’t have to lay with massa or any buck massa sends to our cabin. We CAN decide for ourselves and our children.
debinbrooklyn: The “IR talk” is about African-American women exercising ALL of their options to find CALIBER men across the spectrum of society and to stop focusing exclusively on African-American men. AA women are the most resistant to dating other men because they’re clinging to the idea of “black love”. These AA men waste no time in seeking out non-AA and other black women so it’s shooting themselves in the foot to limit themselves. Since you’re already married it doesn’t apply to you, but skin color cannot be the predominant reason for selecting a mate. Especially when 70%+ are not married and 80% have OOW births. Massa has nothing to do with this.
Dena: I just pulled your comment out of the spam folder. You’ve actually confused the stats. You are looking at live births. We are discussing the overall highest rate of OOW births. The CDC very clearly states black women have the highest OOW birth rate. The next highest are American Indian women, then Latinas, white women and the lowest are Asian women. We’ve had the highest or second highest OOW birth rate for decades. If you don’t believe me call them and ask them to explain their calculations to you in layperson’s terms.
One very apparent lesson from some of the comments to this post is that it is not only important to vet all men, it is also important to vet all women. Not every BW has the best interests of other BW at heart. Sad, but unfortunately, true.
Let’s set the record straight:
We’ve ben pretending for 40 years that MARRIAGE and FAMILY didn’t matter…
We don’t seek HUSBANDS…we seek so-called “GOOD MEN” (which means nothing!!!!).
We blame men for our sexual choices, unlike our grandmothers and great-grandmothers,when we have MORE sexual choice and control than any previous generation of Black women.
Many of us said that “boys don’t need a father,” only to later be repulsed by weak men in relationships – men made WEAK by an unhealthy connection to their UNMARRIED MOTHERS.
Many of us are in PAIN DENIAL over not having our fathers around, and quiet-as-its-kept, by not having “mommy” around, too (we were left in the day care, at the neighbors, with the grandmother, etc…).
Also, all “single motherhood” is not equal! We treat being widowed, being left with kids by your husband, leaving your husband and taking your kids, and having children unmarried all the same, when they are all very different circumstances.
That’s what I’m talking about Gina. We have to get our daughters out of this ‘make do’ attitude. Like I tell my female relatives and friends, “why do you want to wear struggling like its a badge of honor?’ These women rather work two jobs and not ask for child support, because as they say in the bc ‘you can’t make a man do nothing’. Look at Kimora Lee Simmons(though she has her own faults and has her own money) she went after her rightful child support for her two children and that’s it. And many black women labeled her a gold digger. Before heading my to grad school to pursue a different career, I worked in the financial service industry with wealthy clients and believe me their were a lot of white women who made sure they got the child support and spousal support check every month. But rarely heard them being called gold diggers.
I learned the hard way that life is what you make it. I stop trying to make do and now started to make more of my life and hope to pass it alone to my children.
Speaking of support, I examined the RHA website and could not locate any instructive information on the process of securing financial child support. One would think an entire page and/or workshop would be devoted to this, for starters. Backlogged family courts aren’t always sympathetic or responsive.
I did notice that the organization devotes an entire page to parental rights in the event of a child’s criminal arrest.
@Miki that is because RHA is snake oil. They’ve found a group of vulnerable beleaguered Black women, and are capitalizing on that. What else is new? I don’t want to say their intentions are sinister, but the way in which the panel we are speaking about, reeks of exploitation.
@Miki Yes RHA doesn’t provide a lot of the things that would actually support a single mother and the knee-jerk defense by others who hadn’t even bothered to research this but defend it blindly just kills me. Again it’s holding onto totems, totems that do not provide or reciprocate. I actually took the time to review this organization before I laid them out as being liars. A few classes her and there, a failed propaganda does not a program make. It does pay the salaries for the two men running it though. Something to make you go hmm.
I still maintain that the behaviour of many black women produce the CALIBER of many black men. As potential mates and certainly as mothers we need to check how we deal with our males. Most black women PREFER black men. I think it’s unfair to suggest they are “limiting” themselves if that’s their preference. We all make our choices. There are plenty of Black women who have exercised their option to cross the color line. They are obviously not being held back by any sense of loyalty.
For those who prefer to “stay home” I suggest you maintain the same criteria for yourself that you would in dealing with a non-black man. I don’t see a bunch of white men flocking to Black women with baby daddy drama. Unlike the white choices of Black men, I’m not sure white men are marrying any number of Black strippers or waitresses. And let us remember, white men have ALWAYS SLEPT WITH Black women. What they haven’t done is neccesarily MARRY us – certainly not at the same rates that they have slept with us. So
we may want to check ourselves as we “expand our options”.
@DebinBrooklyn
I for one am doing my best to influence the younger male members of our family. I spend a great deal of my time and resources to expose them art and culture other than hip hop. I lead by example by being respectful to others . I adore them and love them without reservation. With all we do within our homes to help…they are still bombarded by negative influences as soon as they walk past the front door.
My friends with children keep telling me that kids do indeed remember the small things and small gestures and that they are truly learning. I hope so.
There are times when my cousins will ask to see a movie or DVD and I will not allow it because it is too violent or has unsuitable materials. The kids will mope and a few minutes later, they” come back with..”Oh that’s OK, we already saw it once at neighbor X’s house last week”!
Then I am shocked because neighbor X seems like such a smart, loving person with common sense. But you would be surprised how many seemingly sharp black folks will walk around with violent , perverse, misogynistic hip hop lyrics blaring through their house with their small children there, also wit watching violent films with their kids by their side.
To me this is a key indicator of what people are talking about when talking about the break down of the black community…these folks should know better.
Also the draw and the excitement to street life is often more compelling to young BM than the messages they get at home because the lessons are being imparted by women and not by older MEN.
In my family like many families of close friends….of the older generation you will find all the older female relatives are college educated but the men are not. The women are working and the men are not. They grew up in the same households got the same messages and yet the women in these families are somehow able to survive and the men fall away. It’s upsetting.
I truly believe love has no color…but for those women who choose to “stay home” they should understand if they are an educated or professional black woman there will be 50 other women staying “at home” laying in wait with them….just waiting….and waiting…and waiting…
The whole idea of “expanding one’s options” is to find someone with whom you share values and experiences.
As for women with OOW children, their choices in men will always be limited by the choice to have a child outside marriage. But I don’t think all BW who have OOW kids are steeped in “drama”.
Many made poor choices but go on to live with struggles and difficulty but not necessarily steeped in hysteria and misery as the “drama” label would imply.
@debinbrooklyn Our entire argument has been that men can NOT be socialized as men while being raised alone by women. Women cannot police men or their behavior. Women cannot get men to do anything they don’t want to.
RHA is foolishness. I think one of the problems is the successful penetration of the black female mind of “feminist” ideology. An ideology, that in is present form was not ever developed by black women for black women, but by white women with the intent to destroy black families. Black women have kids out of wedlock so much because they do not value marriage and they do not value having a huband. They say they value a “good black man”, but their actions say differently. The father of the kids of almost every single mom that I know is a deadbeat unproductive loser who has always been a deadbeat unproductive loser.
Black women climb over and disrespect “good” black men all the time – it starts as early as in grade school- on their way to loosers. They only want the “good” ones after they have have a bastard or two and then is looking for someone to foot the bill.
Please stop with the lie that black men dont want black women. Black men are the most endogamous of all ethnic groups. Interacial marriage amongst blacks is appalingly low from a sociological perspective. Although colorism (light/dark) is an issue, it is arguable that that is an issue from which black women suffer from more than the men. ( i.e. choosing a baby daddy because he will give you child “good hair”, light skin , eyes.) – I have never heard black men talk about selecting a woman on this basis, but black women do it all the time.
Lastly, but not least, in orer for black marraige to survive and thrive black women need to learn what it takes to be a good wife. Its one thing to get a man to marry you, and then it is entirely a differnt thing to marry , but its entirely different to maintain the marriage. Black women need to learn, mate selection, how to be a good wife, and how to value men in general.
@k -
Accountability for both black men and women is sorely needed. However, the lack of black male role models is the biggest issue in the room and one that few black men want to address. There are discussions amongst women to be softer, more feminine etc., and let the man be the man in the relationship all of the time. However, that is a mute point if he does not know what being a man in a relationship is all about. If the gentleman does not know how to treat a lady then all of this – a woman needs to know how to act as a wife immediately becomes a moot point. What bw have done over the last 40 yrs is put on a dress, a pair of pants and got her 44 magnum in case she has to take a fool out – this is due to black men leaving the bc, and not being there to police the black males who come into the community with ill intent.
It is so amazing to me to keep reading from bm the faults of bw ad nauseum but not noting any solutions for themselves or for the black community. I do understand that you are frustrated. However, the issue at hand will be what can black men do to get their own attention about walking out on their kids and how do they learn to be fathers – really LEADERS in the black community again. Until bm take their place, bw are going to keep deciding to leave or doing desperate things to get a man ie having chex with a guy the same night with no condom, not vetting him to make sure that he is worthy of her time & wants a relationship with her, being left and not supported, protected or provided for. Beleive it or not, this is something that young girls learn from their FATHERS
I mean learning what to look for in a partner/ how to vet etc. is something she learns from observing her father.
I noted in the scenario that you played out that you not once put any responsibility on the young men for the *bastards* that they are responsible for. Please, I pray inform me of the value for marriage that this young man who knew too what the outcome of chex without a condom could be, what were his plans for marriage? Am I correct in assuming that he does not value marriage either?
Also, what is your definition for a “good black” man? I find that description to be well – non existent and flimsy at best. What are your expectations of a “wife”? This assertion that this climbing away from good bm starts in elem. school is dubious, well really funny to me. LOL. AGAIN, girls need fathers/male role models at home to in order to KNOW what to run to and want in their own lives. If daddy is a thug/deabeat what ex. of manhood am I really seeing or learning to value?
Black men talk extensively about how bw look – color, complexion etc all of the time. Look up Neo, Berg and others – this is documented. Please explain to me what a “dime” is. I bet you I have an idea what the picture of such a woman looks like to a great deal of “good” bm. LOL
It may be an odd idea, but the truth is bw do not come to earth knowing everything. We come here innocent. We need to be loved, cared for, protected etc. like every other woman on the planet. But for some reason few bm understand that. I get the feeling that too many of them think we are here for chex and financial gain. It is expected for bm to be fair, to think of others to the point of not really existing, and the list of expectations goes on and on. We are not these superwomen that the media and the bc think we can be.