Well. Well. Well. So I discovered a Black Male Privlege Checklist. We will be going through the checklist on this blog over the next couple of weeks. It really crystallizes so many of the issues Black women blog about in about one page.
Now before my male readership starts becoming shrill ( BWHAHAHA), I would like to point out that this Black Male Privilege Checklist was produced by one of your own. No X chromosomes played any part in the construction of this list, but I thought it was pretty gosh darned accurate. The creator of this check list is a man named Jewel Woods( he also wrote a bookabout why Black men go to Brazil for sex tourism- Do we really care?) and this is how he says he came up with the checklist:
The Black Male Privileges Checklist was born out of years of organizing men’s groups and the numerous — often heated — conversations I have had with men while utilizing Barry Deutsch’s The Male Privilege Checklist. In my experiences, most men would object to at least some items on the Male Privilege Checklist. However, “men of color”, and especially African American men, often had the sharpest criticisms of the Male Privilege Checklist and the most problems relating to the idea of male privilege. Jewelwoods.com
Now Woods includes a bunch of claptrap and psychobabble, but the list is an interesting discussion starter. I am only going to take a few categories at a time. We will start with Leadership and Politics.:
Leadership & Politics
1. I don’t have to choose my race over my sex in political matters.
2. When I read African American History textbooks, I will learn mainly about black men.
3. When I learn about the Civil Rights Movement & the Black Power Movements, most of the leaders that I will learn about will be black men.
4. I can rely on the fact that in the near 100-year history of national civil rights organizations such as the NAACP and the Urban League, virtually all of the executive directors have been male.
5. I will be taken more seriously as a political leader than black women.
6. Despite the substantial role that black women played in the Civil Rights Movement and Black Power Movement, currently there is no black female that is considered a “race leader”.
7. I can live my life without ever having read black feminist authors, or knowing about black women’s history, or black women’s issues.
8. I can be a part of a black liberation organization like the Black Panther Party where an “out” rapist Eldridge Cleaver can assume leadership position.
9. I will make more money than black women at equal levels of education and occupation.
10. Most of the national “opinion framers” in Black America including talk show hosts and politicians are men.
Amen and Amen! All true.
Cosigning on number 2. Rosa Parks and if you are lucky Harriet Tubman. Thank goodness my parents didn’t rely on public schools to teach me Black history, but even then I’ve learned about more Black women history makers as an adult than I ever learned as a child.
I have to send out a triple hand clap of praise on number 4. I spoke about this on a panel at a conference. Look at organizations such as the NAACP where a HUGE chunk of the membership and volunteers are Black women, but when it came time to select a new President, not a single Black woman was among the finalists. BEFORE you go yammering about there not being any qualified Black women, let’s remember they selected a 35 year old with no experience running a civil rights organization. There wasn’t a single Black woman with equal qualifications to those of Benjamin Jealous? I’m just asking. Same for Rainbow PUSH and National Action Network and SCLC. And I don’t want to hear about all the women that are on the boards or are Vice Presidents of “Directors.” Its okay for Black women to be the running backs or the wide receivers, maybe even the quarterbacks, but when it comes time to lead a social justice organization, they won’t let Black women coach the team. If a corporation behaved the way some of these freedom fighting and equality champions behave, they would be picketing themselves.
I can name about two Black women who have “public affairs” or political radio talk shows and other than Gwen Ifill I don’t know of another Black woman that hosts a national political or opinion show on television and Washington Week is hardly bubbling over with Black women contributors although the host is a Black woman. Kinda like Condoleezza Rice lamenting no Black folks at the State Department when she’s been Secretary of State for three years. Why didn’t you go out and find some while you were there?
Despite the MYTH that Black women with college degrees can’t deal with a Brotha’ that makes less than them or one without a de-gree, the truth is that with all of our sheepskin, Black men still make more money than Black women.
Black women were often the masterminds and the workhorses of the civil right’s movement, but have basically been erased from history with the exception of Rosa Parks and even then, the women who organized and led the Montgomery Bus Boycott get no credit.
So menfolk, how privileged do you feel today? Woods also is the director of the Renaissance Male Project;A Midwest Multi-cultural & Multi-issue Progressive Men’s Organization.
100 comments ↓
This is so interesting and yet timely. It was only until recently that I really became aware of the precarious state of women of color in their own communities.
I knew things weren’t right, but I didn’t have the words to make it all gel.
“Cosigning on number 2. Rosa Parks and if you are lucky Harriet Tubman. Thank goodness my parents didn’t rely on public schools to teach me Black history, but even then I’ve learned about more Black women history makers as an adult than I ever learned as a child.”
I was taught about only those 2 women or so growing up until I began to educate myself as well.
And number 7 is so powerful for me. When talking to some people within the community it feels like BW aren’t even human therefore our issues don’t matter.
Very very good post. Yeah, and if one speaks exclusively about the condition of the black women one will be denounced a “man hater.” Sorta funny how one’s own well being isn’t supposed to matter in this context.
We’ve been trained not to notice sexism / misogyny and the effect has been devastating. Racism isn’t the only burden we bear. In many instances it is secondary.
Great post. I will be interested in your other posts in the days to come.
I gave up on these organizations decades ago. It started with Jesse Jackson came out against The Cosby Show when it first came on the air in 1982 or 1983. He had the nerve to say that black people did not live that way. I knew then these organizations were nothing more than groups to give them power. I knew that at least PUSH was all about keeping blacks thinking that all blacks are poor. I was so furious when I heard that because I knew it was not true AND HE KNEW IT WAS NOT TRUE. Over the decades seeing that they did NOTHING for bw let me know that these groups are all about lifting up bm. I’m not their slaves and refuse to participate in their garbage.
I am interested in how this topic will unfold and look forward to the discussion over the coming weeks. I think that at the root of black patriarchal privilege lies the misunderstanding of true masculinity and twenty-first century black manhood, in particular . The consequences, in my opinion, have been devastating to our families and relationships, the community, and institutions such as the black church.
I can’t wait till you hit the College section of the list. I found that part very interesting. Especially since i attend an all female HBCU (Bennett College).
Uh-oh! Not supposed to use “black male” and “privilege” in the same phrase! Ain’t no such thang, ya heard me?
At least the list was formulated by a man – goodness knows how much gnashing of the teeth there would be if a woman put together a list. Not to mention the credibility immediately eviserated.
Mary Mcleod Bethune
DESCRIPTION OF ACCOMPLISHMENTS: Founded the Daytona Normal and Industrial Institute for Negro Girls (now Bethune-Cookman College) in 1904, and served as president from 1904-1942 and from 1946-47. Was a leader in the black women’s club movement and served as president of the National Association of Colored Women. Was a delegate and advisor to national conferences on education, child welfare, and home ownership.Was Director of Negro Affairs in the the National Youth Adminstration from 1936 to 1944. Served as consultant to the U.S. Secretary of War for selection of the first female officer candidates. Appointed consultant on interracial affairs and understanding at the charter conference of the U.N. Founder of the National Council of Negro Women. Vice-president of the NAACP. Was awarded the Haitian Medal of Honor and Merit, that country’s highest award. In Liberia she received the honor of Commander of the Order of the Star of Africa.
Love this post! I was also happy that a brother came up with this list. I think for some reason men are more open to dicussing sexism and misogyny if men bring the issue up rather than women.
great post, will share with black feminst crowd in ATL
adding to “Peas in their Pods”; Dorothy Height, Ella Baker, Fannie Lou Hammer, Mahalia Jackson (inspired the “I Have a Dream” speech), Sweet Honey In the Rock, Faye Wattleton (iddg – intelligent and drop dead gorgeous), Angela Glover Blackwell, Lisa Y. Sullivan, Anna Deavere Smith…
Living, present, and past, the list goes on. brothers are missing out if that have not learned from these women.
for a woman on the rise check out Dr. Avis Jones-DeWeever – savvy energetic at the seat of a great mentor.
I think that there are more black men in leadership roles simply because black women don’t rock the boat when it comes to sexism. Glad that’s changing.
well I cant argue with those talking points, the contribution of black women in history is a criminal secret.
I didnt learn anything till my freshman year in college by a AA women who was teaching AA history.
That being said Jewel Woods is still a low life for writing a stereotypical book about Black men going to Brazil for sex. The balls to broad brush and say that men would rather find happiness with a hooker than a black women is an attempt to take advantage of the insecurities odf some women.
Other than that i think he is dead on with this.
This was a kick butt article. Right on!!! Finally we are getting to this.
Also, when journalists were covering the civil rights movement of the 60s, virtually ALL the reporters were white men. They never bothered to interview ANY of the women organizers of the bus boycott. Now we know black women got that thing going, and then let fearless leader take all the credit for it.
I don’t agree that black women make less than black men. I believe black women are in a kind of renaissance right now, but it’s more complex.
Thanks for this article, it’s amazing!!!
With respect to leadership, Black women only have themselves to blame. Did you see the DNC? Black women should demand and command power and protection like the fake out, well-worn PUMAs and for the life of me I will never understand her appeal our Alaskan ice queen Palin power!
One had better die fighting against injustice than die like a dog or a rat in a trap.” Ida B. Wells-Barnett
Dr. Margaret Burroughs – Poet, teacher, activist, artist and founder of the DuSable African-American History Museum in Chicago.
Hit the libraries and check out “When and Where I Enter: The Impact of Black Women on Race and Sex in America” by Paula Giddings.
There was a lot of criticism (from the usual suspects) when it first came out, but I think it’s still timely and worth reading.
More peas:
- Shirley Chisholm
- Barbara Jordan
- Dorothy Height (social work)
- Inabel Burns Lindsay (social work)
And many more.
#7 is so amazingly true
My husband was clueless about the differences between white feminism and black feminism when we first started dating. He thought all women were pretty equal in the world of feminism. Over the years he has seen how black women have had to put our race ahead of our gender time and time again and that black men actually perpetuate this via their privilege.
I’ve seen this list on another forum (black folks, male and female) and the members kinda picked it apart. I’m interested to see what happens here.
“I don’t agree that black women make less than black men. I believe black women are in a kind of renaissance right now, but it’s more complex.”
We are in a type of dichotomy, there is a segment of Black women that are doing better than our ancestors ever dreamed we would do. We are also probably the most potentially powerful group of BLack women on the planet. On the otherhand. We are also distant from some of the segments of our community who’s lives don’t look all that much different that 1938. the only additional burden is our concept of family and community have changed.
regarding your conclusion that we make more than Black men, I would like to see your stats.Every study I have seen on equal pay says we make less than Black men. You also have to consider the fact that there are many Black women with college degrees who make less than Black men with none AND the fact that although Black women outnumber Black men in undergrad, that trend reverses in graduate and professional schools.
Although, Black women with professional degrees are the ONLY group that make more money on average than our white counterparts, HOWEVER, that has to do with choice.
Thanks for this post Gina.
I recall feminist sites giving a list of male privilege. Men responded with a list just as long citing female privilege. Both genders are privileged in different ways. Women get less prison time than men for the same crimes are are likewise less likely to get the death penalty for the same crimes. Women can cry, yet if I cry I’m a sissy and a punk. Women can seek out traditional male jobs, yet if I seek out traditional female jobs, my sexual orientation comes in to question. Women can get away with sexually harassing men much more than the reverse. Women don’t have to register for the draft nor do they have to ever fear being drafted against their will and sent to war. Men are far more likely to be killed on the job. Employers tend to favor black women over black men. People are far quicker to come to the aid of a woman in distress. It is normal to expect a man to foot the bill on dates and to be the main providers in the home. A man who is a homemaker is viewed as a sorry out-of-work bum. We can go on.
Also, there is research that indicates that women do get near equal pay for the same work and I imagine that black women go beyond “near” and actually get at least the same pay as black men for the same work.
Men make more money due to their tendencies to choose higher paying professions and to work longer hours.
Thank you rich for offering your perspective on this matter without resorting to calling all Black women a bunch of man-hating feminazis. You have a point.
I still say Black women earn less than Black men. A lot of Black women THINK they are earning more than Black men, but they aren’t. All the DATA says otherwise on the equal pay issue.
I hear you Rich. Men are even expected to die for women in crisis situations (think Titanic and natural disasters). I think my life is just as important (actually more) as a woman I have never met.
We are relegated to Secret Service agents who have to robotically open and hold doors, protect women’s safety, pull out chairs, etc.
If women are measured by their looks, men are measured by their W2. We are reduced to a walking paycheck or job title on the auction block (are you still dating that doctor/lawyer/baller/pre-med student?).
Women also have the social freedom to quit a stressful job. If a man does that, he’s weak.
Women have an ace up their sleeve; they have the power to grant and withhold sex, which can only be countered by having another woman on the side, Outsourcing (Going to Brazil), or jumping through women’s hoops/putting up with their shiznit. This is what motivates men to work on their W2’s and I9’s, to make themselves more attractive to women.
I recently asked a buddy of mine why he works 7 days a week. He said, and I quote, “As a man, you ARE your W2″.
Men build things with their bare hands, like buildings and roads, putting extreme wear and tear on their bodies. We therefore die sooner, and you get the assets and live to meet your youngest grandchildren.
Hmm, given all of this feminism, maybe I should jump-start a Masculinist movement…
great post gina. i sent it to my brothalove family members and friends. i am gonna make it a topic for our thanksgiving, christmas, and kwanzaa family gatherings this fall and winter. i heard jewel speak on cocoa’s corner with shawna renee and was impressed by his insights regarding black men and brazil trips. he is doing some powerful work. peace.
So Rich has emboldened y’all and now y’all want to start comparing Okay.
As form as a Masculinist movement, you already have that. its called politics, pop culture, religion, education. Its all Masculinist-dominated.
Please Brother’s share with us your gender oppression. I want to hear more.
Women do not have to social freedom to quit a stressful job. Thats disresepctful to the women who go to work everyday to back breaking grinding work to take care of their families. 55% of all families who are in poverty are lead by women.
OH this should be an interesting discussion, but please continue with your frankness. We need to have this all out in the open.
What’s wrong with protecting a woman? Why is that a burden on you? Is that a male thing or a Black male thing?
Reread my comments above.
You don’t see what’s wrong with a man protecting a woman with his life, other than someone close to him? Are you implying that my life is worth less than yours?
Would you protect me with your life? I would assume that a forward thinking woman like yourself wouldn’t hesistate to do so.
You can’t have the privilege w/o responsibilities.
I don’t know if its just me, but I usually only hear black men make complaints like this, its like some want to have it both ways. They want to be seen and masculine and want to be taken care of at the same time.
My dad is kind of a sexist when it come to a womans place in the world, but at least he didn’t complain about getting up and going work everyday to buy the food he wanted my mom to cook and the “burden” of protecting his wife and family.
We either drop all gender conformity and barriers or just keep it as a give and taken situation.
Actually, it’s mostly white men who make these complaints.
http://www.feministcritics.org/blog/2008/06/08/female-privilege/
http://the-niceguy.com/Checklist.php
As form as a Masculinist movement, you already have that. its called politics, pop culture, religion, education. Its all Masculinist-dominated.
Those are not movements. That’s just the reality of testosterone fueled male aggression and competitiveness. Do you want men to stop giving it their all when competing against women in non-physical pursuits? Unequal outcomes don’t necessarily mean unequal opportunities.
Please Brother’s share with us your gender oppression. I want to hear more.
Women do not have to social freedom to quit a stressful job. Thats disresepctful to the women who go to work everyday to back breaking grinding work to take care of their families. 55% of all families who are in poverty are lead by women.
That’s why he said “social freedom” and not “economic freedom”. In a situation whereas both the man and woman in a marriage is capable of making the same income, yet only one income is needed, society accepts that either they both work or he works. If she works and he doesn’t, he is ostracized. Therefor she has the “social freedom” to stop working that he doesn’t.
What’s wrong with protecting a woman? Why is that a burden on you? Is that a male thing or a Black male thing?
There is nothing wrong with it, yet it is a burden, albeit a burden that men have traditionally accepted and often embraced. Most men will jump in front of bullets to save their wives while most wives would not do the same for their husbands. It’s a double standard that women embrace because that particular double standard benefits them. When a double standard doesn’t benefit them, they want to eliminated it. That’s where the problem lies. Many modern women want the advantages of being protected and catered to while not wanting any of the responsibilities.
What you get today are a lot of women declaring that being a man involves taking the leadership role and taking responsibility for the community, the protection of women and children, etc. When women do wrong, it is our fault for not being there to guide them. What folks don’t want to understand is that by doing so, you place men in the position of parent over both women and children and this tends to demand that women to some degree submit to men in the way that children submit to parents. This is why the phrase “women and children” has often been proclaimed whether if precedes the term “first” or the phrase “seen, not heard”.
When we get nostalgic and talk about how men were chivalrous back in the day and provided for , protected and catered to women, we fail to acknowledge that many times, these women did whatever these men said and often asked for permission before even making a comment in a social gathering. This is extreme, yet it illustrates that men have always been willing to allow double standards that benefit women as long as men themselves received certain desired privileges. As is seen today, as men lose such privileges, they are less willing to accept double standards that benefit women.
Black men have less male privilege than white men and black women are more aggressive in demanding the dominant role and this has contributed to black women commonly being left to fend for themselves.
Let the church say…AMEN!
Actually, it’s mostly white men who make these complaints, not black men.
Actually, it’s mostly white men who make these complaints, not black men.
Bingo. Go to any masculinist site and it is comprised predominantly of white men. Often times being a masculinist is considered unmasculine since men are supposed to be stoic and never complain. The hyper masculinity commonly practiced by black and Hispanic men doesn’t allow for such complaining. If you are complaining like this, you don’t know how to “keep your women in check”.
Here is a good article entiled “The War Against Boys”:
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200005/war-against-boys
The research commonly cited to support claims of male privilege and male sinfulness is riddled with errors. Almost none of it has been published in peer-reviewed professional journals. Some of the data turn out to be mysteriously missing. A review of the facts shows boys, not girls, on the weak side of an education gender gap. The typical boy is a year and a half behind the typical girl in reading and writing; he is less committed to school and less likely to go to college. In 1997 college full-time enrollments were 45 percent male and 55 percent female. The Department of Education predicts that the proportion of boys in college classes will continue to shrink.
Data from the U.S. Department of Education and from several recent university studies show that far from being shy and demoralized, today’s girls outshine boys. They get better grades. They have higher educational aspirations. They follow more-rigorous academic programs and participate in advanced-placement classes at higher rates. According to the National Center for Education Statistics, slightly more girls than boys enroll in high-level math and science courses. Girls, allegedly timorous and lacking in confidence, now outnumber boys in student government, in honor societies, on school newspapers, and in debating clubs. Only in sports are boys ahead, and women’s groups are targeting the sports gap with a vengeance. Girls read more books. They outperform boys on tests for artistic and musical ability. More girls than boys study abroad. More join the Peace Corps. At the same time, more boys than girls are suspended from school. More are held back and more drop out. Boys are three times as likely to receive a diagnosis of attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder. More boys than girls are involved in crime, alcohol, and drugs. Girls attempt suicide more often than boys, but it is boys who more often succeed. In 1997, a typical year, 4,483 young people aged five to twenty-four committed suicide: 701 females and 3,782 males.
Here is a good paper detailing the modern trend for black men to be discriminated against not only for race but for gender and how employers prefer black women over black men:
http://www.allacademic.com//meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/8/4/2/9/pages184295/p184295-1.php
Yep.
“Data from the U.S. Department of Education and from several recent university studies show that far from being shy and demoralized, today’s girls outshine boys. They get better grades. They have higher educational aspirations. They follow more-rigorous academic programs and participate in advanced-placement classes at higher rates.”
Heck, yeah we do! Those of us who have been blessed enough to have a measure of success have had it beaten into us, that we have to fight and win if we’re going to support ourselves and a family.
Often, empathy is left for boys. Girls are often forced to get their act together early. My neighbor had two boys and two girls. The girls did all of the cleaning, made all of the beds, ironed all of the clothing.
I remember once as a teenager, one of the girls remarked to me how grateful she was that her brother was “willing” to wear jogging pants that day, so she didn’t have to iron for him.
I thought she was nuts. There were no girl versus boy jobs in my home. Everyone did everything. I’ll give you one good guess as to which of them today seem to not only be surviving but flourishing.
Needless to say, I use my parents model.
I think that the leadership and politics section is much less controversial than the upcoming sections but it is still debatable nonetheless.
I just want to add that the black community coddles and embraces some of the most violent and sexist men in the world. Half of our so-called “heroes” and “leaders” were wife beaters and adulterers. But bring that up and people (male and female) think you’re crazy.
I am sick and tired of blackfolks acting as if being black gives some of these men the right to act like animals. One form of oppression does not justify another.
“Half of our so-called “heroes” and “leaders” were wife beaters and adulterers.”
Huemanity that is something that I am just now finding out. I was so sick when I learned how horribly so many black women activists were treated. I foolishly thought that the vitrol being aimed at women and particularly feminists was a recent development of my generation.
I always thought that leader meant being held to a higher standard and judged more harshly than others. I thought it meant integrity, honor, and good character in all areas of your life. It was something that you not only demonstrated through your actions, but you couldn’t help but to have those behaviors because that is who you are at your core.
Huemanity, you are 100% correct. A lot of it is due to the stereotypes of manhood (tough, ruthless, violent, hyper-masculine, insensitive). Look at Bush and Cheney. They come off tough, ruthless, and insensitive. It is not just stereotypical of black men. War mongers are usually loved by their people and romanticized, like Napoleon, Attila the Hun, Julius Caesar, Genghis Khan, and King Henry VIII, who killed wives who wouldn’t bear sons. These were all ruthless killers and womanizers on a grand scale, yet they are though well of in history.
We have to change our perception of manhood.
“Half of our so-called “heroes” and “leaders” were wife beaters and adulterers.”
Not to mention rapists.
All I can say is that Jewel is one very insightful man. Thanks for this post Gina.
@Mod and Rich
Men want it both ways as well.
They still want to benefit from various male privileges but then don’t want to do the work that that requires.
My biggest pet peeve in dating and relationships today is that to many young men want to embrace the traditional masculine rolls of being the head of the household or relationships but don’t want any of the responsibility that comes with that.
i.e. paying for dates, taking care of and protecting family etc.
As far as your giving your life for a woman – it has nothing to do with privelege and more to do with biology…you need lots of women and children for a society to continue…you only need a few men.
In WW! when something like 60% (don’t quote me on my numbers but it was extremely high) of young men were lost in Europe b/c of the war…it wasn’t the end of the world. Europe re-populated rather easily.
When you look at the Jewish population…they have never been able to get their numbers up since the Holocaust…too many women and children were lost.
In great disasters you need the women and children to survive if society is going to continue.
That’s all that’s about…not some warped sense of privilege.
“As far as your giving your life for a woman – it has nothing to do with privelege and more to do with biology…you need lots of women and children for a society to continue…you only need a few men.”
That’s easy for you to say; how convenient. That’s a good spin on the idea that a man’s life is worth less than yours. The Liberated man is not buyin’ it. We have seen our grandfathers and fathers work themselves to death so the wife can enjoy another 25-30 years of life with someone else.
Uh-uh.
Following your reasoning, since we only need a few men, you black women should be okay with your hubbies and boyfriends having multiple women. After all, you only need a few men to repopulate…maybe misogynistic rap videos are good for keeping the population vibrant, eh?
I must be honest no matter how harsh I may sound. I really don’t see any evidence in society of black male privilege. If this is the same list I read before, I doubt this list represents the feelings of most black men. If so, that would mean black men are generally perverted. I don’t know most black men, but I can say they generally aren’t perverts.
But back to the point, I just don’t see how there is such a thing called black male privilege, at least not in the white male dominated western world.
White males have the most privilege in our society whether or not they admit it (especially white MRA’s).
There is this huge misconception that men who are black will not oppress women who are black because they themselves are oppressed. This is a lie.
Men who are black have male privileges too. It’s shown every time women who are black spoil their sons and are hard on their daughters. Some will say that it’s because these men are “oppressed” but no one realizes that it is also because they are male. Also, it’s shown when men who are black are given a pass for irresponsible sexual behavior but women who are black are condemned as hoodrats and whores. Men who are black will state that they have less privilege than men who are white BUT no one discusses how men who are black perpetuate white skin privilege amongst other blacks. No one openly discusses how men who are black perpetuate white skin shade privilege due to their personal bias for white skin. Also, no one discusses how this behavior severely damages the self-esteem of young black girls. White male privilege and white supremacy is null and void when those who complain about drive white skin privilege.
Men who are black drive the myth that they are being oppressed in various ways. By stating that employers favor women who are black over them, black men continue to drive this myth. This is why black women think that they are making more money than black men. In reality, men who are black get paid more than women who are black because they are men. They have male privilege.
Men who are black drive racist stereotypes of black Americans for their own purposes. A lot of them will use the poor behavior of some black women to perpetuate stereotypes that black women are sapphires, jezebels, welfare queens and other things that are stereotypical.
I could say more but that is where I will start.
” It’s shown every time women who are black spoil their sons and are hard on their daughters”
Thats a cop out, because men are harder on their sons than they are on their daughters thats the way it is.
“Also, it’s shown when men who are black are given a pass for irresponsible sexual behavior but women who are black are condemned as hoodrats and whores.”
That is wrong, men are given hell for not raising their kids and the spread of HIV.
“Men who are black drive the myth that they are being oppressed in various ways. ”
Myth? Racial profiling, police brutality and out right murder, unfair hiring practices, bias sentencing in criminal courts, those are myths?
“Men who are black drive racist stereotypes of black Americans for their own purposes.”
Really like who? Rappers? BET? What secret organization of black men do you know runs around calling women sapphires, jezebels, welfare queens.
Better yet what role do women play in that?
Mekare,
I believe that there are some black men who want and will try to oppress black women, but they can’t. Black men in America (and probably the world) do not have that much power. An oppressor needs power in order to oppress. I believe that black women are suffering the woman hating in black culture only because we allow it. For a long time, we avoided issues surrounding gender. What makes our plight different from white women is that their men are actually the ones with power so their fight will be that much difficult. The only thing black womanhood has to do is assert herself and stop giving black men a pass for anything and everything they do. That must be the reason why I’m not so cynical about progress for black women in the world.
@JJ where did you get that info about WWII?
@Lormarie..Lormarie said “What makes our plight different from white women is that their men are actually the ones with power so their fight will be that much difficult.”
That quote right there is worthy of an entire post. It demonstrates a complete and total lack of understanding about power. No matter who has MORE power, human beings will always seek to use what power they do have, even if that power is the power to make other people more miserable than they are.
Good lord. Do you really believe that the only thing oppressing Black women is her unwillingness to assert herself? Do you apply that same standard to Black men?
Sexism isn’t merely some individual inconvenience, it is systemic and it’s consequences widespread.
We all have POWER. Go read the Parable of the Sower and the Parable of the Talents. Everybody has power.
You think Black women just HAPPEN to be physically assaulted at a rate that far outpaces our White and Hispanic counterparts. We just HAPPEN to be raped seven times more often. We just HAPPEN to be excluded from the history books and we just HAPPEN to be missing from leadership roles in major Black organizations. PLUUUEEZ.
Sexism and racism are kissing cousins.
You really think Black men can’t oppress Black women? Go to a battered women’s shelter and tell me they aren’t oppressed?
That’s not all Black men, but your unwillingness to acknowledge that this exists at all is why the man had to come up with the list.
Did you say Black men throughout the world don’t have power? Gee tell that to the folks in Zimbabwe who were getting their kneecaps destroyed with iron bars for voting against Mugabe or the family of the 2 year old baby that got slammed to the ground breaking both of its legs.
To acknowledge some systemic oppression isn’t an indictment of Black men. The Black community OUGHT to be a shining example of human rights and dignity, yet here we are a group of educated Black people arguing to maintain the status quo.
“Men who are black drive racist stereotypes of black Americans for their own purposes. A lot of them will use the poor behavior of some black women to perpetuate stereotypes that black women are sapphires, jezebels, welfare queens and other things that are stereotypical.”
Really? Are you talking about rappers? What caliber of black men do you all deal with? None of my BM friends are like this.
“That’s a cop out, because men are harder on their sons than they are on their daughters that’s the way it is.”
Mike, we are talking about black male privilege. What I said was:
“It’s shown every time women who are black spoil their sons and are hard on their daughters”
There is a myth that black men do not have male privilege or will not oppress black women because they are oppressed and that is a lie. There are a lot black mothers who spoil their sons partially because they are men. That is a male privilege that black men have.
You are said
“That’s a cop out, because men are harder on their sons than they are on their daughters that’s the way it is”
And then said:
“That is wrong, men are given hell for not raising their kids and the spread of HIV.”
Mike, we are talking about black men in particular. Are you indirectly acknowledging that there are not a lot of black men in their homes? Because I will say that, there are not a lot of homes were black men are present to be hard on their sons.
I am saying that black men are given a pass on irresponsible sexual behavior, which is a sign of black male privilege. Black men are continuously allowed to behave sexually irresponsibly BECAUSE it is the womans responsibility to take every single precaution to prevent AIDS, unwanted pregnancy, STD’s, ect and if the woman is harmed it’s on her because the male will not be around.
“Myth? Racial profiling, police brutality and out right murder, unfair hiring practices, bias sentencing in criminal courts, those are myths”
Mike, this is a dangerous statement. A lot of black men use the sympathy generated from this statement to take advantage of black women. A lot of black men will use statements like these to focus attention on their issues only. However, they will not give a second thought to the well being of black women because they are women. Your ability to do that is part of male privilege and black male privilege.
Also, statements like the one above ignore black males role in perpetuating racism and skin shade hierarchies among black Americans. You mentioned BET and rappers and that is an obvious example. Why shouldn’t someone ignore black males getting on TV and perpetuating racism?!? And why wouldn’t an everyday black man engage in this behavior? It’s an ugly secret but it is a reality. There are a lot of black men who have a bias for white and light skin, mixed race women, light skin women, ect, ect and there is no shame in that. But damaging the reputation of black women and self-esteem of black girls is hideous.
Lormarie,
There is a flaw in that statement. You do not have to be ruler of the world to oppress and hold someone down. A lot of men in the world oppress women and black men are no exception. There is this myth that men who are black men will have the best interests in mind of women who are black because they are “oppressed” and women in general are oppressed so they can relate when they can not. That has been historically proven. There is an unhealthy closeness between black men and women and it has to be broken.
I’m going to come out and say this. Black men in America are no longer oppressed. They can build countries, families and take from the white man just like they take from us.
“I believe that black women are suffering the woman hating in black culture only because we allow it”
Lorie, there is a whole system set up in black America that forbids women who are black to speak against black men because they are “oppressed.”
You say we “allow” it but whenever the topic comes up, the responsibility is on the woman to fix things. This is part of black male privilege and sexism.
Women who are black are still women. We cannot handle what is going on in black America. We are not strong enough. It is our responsibility to resume our role as women, get married, raise families, protect our interests, live and die. That’s all we can do.
Good lord. Do you really believe that the only thing oppressing Black women is her unwillingness to assert herself? Do you apply that same standard to Black men?–Gem2001
Actually, it is you who lacks understanding of power as well as the meaning of assertion in this context. Black men do not control the institutions necessary to oppress. Black women historically and presently have not asserted their rights when it comes to being victims of sexism. This is all due to the desire not to see another brother in jail, or at any rate in trouble. Until we start asserting our right to be respected or to live free of violence this will only get worse. In other words, we should care more about our own lives instead of a black thug out to do us harm. You say that people will use the power they do have. I still say that black women aren’t asserting the power we have.
Did you say Black men throughout the world don’t have power? Gee tell that to the folks in Zimbabwe who were getting their kneecaps destroyed with iron bars for voting against Mugabe or the family of the 2 year old baby that got slammed to the ground breaking both of its legs.–Gem2001
Yes, I still say that black men lack power. Why? Mugabe is only in power because the white western powers that be allow him to stay in power. Do you honestly believe that Britain or the US couldn’t unseat him if they wanted to?
To acknowledge some systemic oppression isn’t an indictment of Black men. The Black community OUGHT to be a shining example of human rights and dignity, yet here we are a group of educated Black people arguing to maintain the status quo.–Gem2001
Please, you don’t even know me or my views, LOL. Black women are NOT oppressed by black men. We simply do not assert the power we have.
You mention that black women are assaulted by black men. Well, black men are assaulted by black men as well.
As soon as we start asserting our rights meaning:
Stop supporting black men who harm black women and children (R Kelly)
Take steps to protect ourselves physically (self-defense, firearms)
Stop buying music that degrades black women
We will see changes. Until then, I stand by what I said.
Black men cannot oppress black women if we don’t let them.
Hi Mekare,
I hear you loud and clear. But respectfully I sense the same defeatism that I hear from too many black women. Honestly, I am a fighter by nature. Advocating for black women and girls (or fixing things) is not too strong for me and many other black women.
Women who are black are still women. We cannot handle what is going on in black America. We are not strong enough. It is our responsibility to resume our role as women, get married, raise families, protect our interests, live and die. That’s all we can do.
Black women never relinquished our role as women. We’ve simply demanded to be recognized as such.
Lorie, there is a whole system set up in black America that forbids women who are black to speak against black men because they are “oppressed.” –Mekare
I have no problem speaking out against black men. In fact, I’ve been doing it for quite some time.
You say we “allow” it but whenever the topic comes up, the responsibility is on the woman to fix things. This is part of black male privilege and sexism.–Mekare
I say we allow it because, as I mentioned previously, I am a natural fighter. The responsibility is on me to protect my interests and fight anyone who attempts to hinder me…including black men. There are plenty of black women who have the same attitude as I do and more. We may not be in the majority, but remember, it only takes a few to make real noise.
I’m not trying to argue with you, but I think we see things differently. I feel no kinship or hate with black men outside of my family so perhaps that makes speaking out easier.
mekare
No, your quote ” It’s shown every time women who are black spoil their sons and are hard on their daughters” while maybe ture you also ignore the fact that when a man is involved in the lives of his children (the norm not the exception) they balance out the mother spoiling of their sons and riding hard of their daughters.
Privilege has no weight there, you can easily say that men who raise lttle girls (yes they do exist) spoil them because they are girls.
“Myth? Racial profiling, police brutality and out right murder, unfair hiring practices, bias sentencing in criminal courts, those are myths”
That is still not a myth, it is a fact.
“A lot of black men use the sympathy generated from this statement to take advantage of black women.”
Really how is this used to oppress black women?
Where have you seen black male led media, law enforcement or studies that have valued black men lives over women?
“That is wrong, men are given hell for not raising their kids and the spread of HIV.”
“Mike, we are talking about black men in particular. Are you indirectly acknowledging that there are not a lot of black men in their homes?”
You got evidence suggesting that because a black man is not living in the house hold, he is not involved in the lives of his kids?
Because I got evidence that says that black men are more likely than other groups when not in the home to be more involded in the lives of their children., regardless of the relationship with the mothers.
“I am saying that black men are given a pass on irresponsible sexual behavior, which is a sign of black male privilege. Black men are continuously allowed to behave sexually irresponsibly BECAUSE it is the womans responsibility to take every single precaution to prevent AIDS, unwanted pregnancy, STD’s, ect and if the woman is harmed it’s on her because the male will not be around.”
Once again that is a cop out, unless you are saying that ALL black women are RAPED by black men than “sexually irresponsibly” is a two way street.
For me to sit here and blame a woman for my decision not to use a condom is as stupid sa her decision not tp protect her self.
IT TAKES TWO TO TANGO.
“Why shouldn’t someone ignore black males getting on TV and perpetuating racism?!?”
Once again who, when, where?
You have yet to give examples that show that black men have exclusively perpetuate racism or oppression of women with out the help of BLACK WOMEN.
“It’s an ugly secret but it is a reality. There are a lot of black men who have a bias for white and light skin, mixed race women, light skin women, ect, ect and there is no shame in that. But damaging the reputation of black women and self-esteem of black girls is hideous.”
Reeaalllly?
And I suppose the acceptance of light skinned black males was pulled out of the sky with pumkin pie.
I am also to think that black males in this country determinre the standard of beauty since we own all forms of media.
Oh wait we dont.
So I wonder who is to blame for the euro-centric love affair of beauty?
No doubt black women have rightly been given the tag as mule of the earth for the unjustices put upon them, but nothing you or any one else have said up in this site has shown that there is a conscience effort by “black men” to oppress black women.
And of even more importance not a single solution has been offered other than blame the darkest thing with a penis.
What has gone down in here is the usual preaching to the choir.
clnmike said”And of even more importance not a single solution has been offered other than blame the darkest thing with a penis.”
That is not true. This is a discussion about helping people to recognize sexism within the Black community. How did it turn into Blame. The reason the man came up with the list is because people don’t recognize it.
Remember, WE didn’t come up with the list. Your Brotha Jewel came up with it. DOn’t worry I suspect people are coming on with their stats next week.
The point about privlege is that you don’t have to actively work to opress others, you just enjoy the privlege oblivious to it, why you have it, how your benefit from it, and who gave it to you.
You think Black women just HAPPEN to be physically assaulted at a rate that far outpaces our White and Hispanic counterparts. We just HAPPEN to be raped seven times more often. We just HAPPEN to be excluded from the history books and we just HAPPEN to be missing from leadership roles in major Black organizations. PLUUUEEZ.
Black men are physically assaulted at a rate that far out paces their white and Hispanic counterparts. Black women assault other black women at a rate that out paces their white and Hispanic counterparts. Black women assault men at a rate that out paces their white and Hispanic counterparts.
You are trying to show the general violence within black America as some evidence of greater gender oppression. That is just not the case. Gender role distinctions among blacks have been negated to a greater extent than with other groups. It seems that feminists often demand that women be treated by men no different from other men, yet don’t want to accept the negatives that come with this. Men fight each other, hit each other, shoot each other, stab each other, compete against each other, are apathetic toward each other, etc. etc. What we have with so many feminists is a ‘pick and choose’ equality. Treat us like you treat other men except when it comes to this or that.
Now a question. There are more women in the world than men and this goes for most societies. So men do not have the numbers advantage. Tell me, why do men dominate the world (or are perceived as dominating the world)?
There are more women in the world than men and this goes for most societies. So men do not have the numbers advantage. Tell me, why do men dominate the world (or are perceived as dominating the world)?
Oh my goodness! Now if you took the world MEN and replaced it with White People and took the world women and replaced it with Black people you would see how silly that statement is.
Number have nothing to do with it. If that was the case, South African would not have languished under aparteeid. Black people outnumbered White people. Heck in the United states, slaved outnumbered White people in the south for a long time.
Why is it so hard to concede sexism? What about that causes such resistance?
“Why is it so hard to concede sexism? What about that causes such resistance?”
Wow. Somehow this has become a contest for America’s most oppressed! And you know the black man cannot lose! He’s as victimized, vulnerable, and delicate as a little blond white girl.
Acknowledging sexism would confer responsibility. For some, black men would lose their “ultimate victim status” to black women.
Sexism acknowledges we are women FIRST. Some folks just don’t want to hear that.
But you never answered the question. You can extend it to race it you want. The question still applies. Why does one group have more influence over the world than another group? Is it some evil curse or is it simply a case of one group performing in a way that places them in a certain position of influence?
Men have historically had different priorities than women. These priorities placed men in a certain position. Now you have a modern movement whereas some or many women complain about the position men have placed themselves in and they demand that men relinquish much or most of this position. It reminds of how Title IX, for the sake of equity, has more so resulted in an elimination of many men’s sports as opposed to an increase in women’s sports.
Also, you keep citing the fact that the man who made this list is black as if that legitimizes it more. In that case, does the fact that Shahrazad Ali, a black woman, wrote ”The Blackman’s Guide to Understanding the Blackwoman,” make that book more legitimate?
Acknowledging sexism would confer responsibility. For some, black men would lose their “ultimate victim status” to black women.
Sexism acknowledges we are women FIRST. Some folks just don’t want to hear that.
Okay thanks for answering that for me Goldenah. Because they keep tap dancing around that issue. So I repeat to the obfuscators and redirectors…What’s wrong with recognizing sexism? Why does that frighten or threaten you?
Rich said “Men have historically had different priorities than women. These priorities placed men in a certain position.”
Oh so your privilege just HAPPENED?? It was an accident!! Accidental Privilege.
@Goldenah yes it is clearly a battle for the title of “World’s Most Oppressed.”
So I repeat to the obfuscators and redirectors…What’s wrong with recognizing sexism? Why does that frighten or threaten you?
What’s wrong with you recognizing the blatant sexism directed at men? Why does this frighten you? It’s always one sided. Plus, you really haven’t identified modern sexism in the U.S. You refer to past history and third world cultures. Other than that, you refer to numbers without considering that there is not necessarily a connection between equal opportunities and equal numbers. You refer to a “wage gap” notion that has been debunked by several studies. You refer to violence against women being unique as if men are not significantly more violent against other men.
Oh so your privilege just HAPPENED?? It was an accident!! Accidental Privilege.
So are you saying that it was a curse or a spell? I mean, tell me, why do men have this “privilege”? Who gave it to us? You are beginning to not give rational answers.
@Rich,
You disappoint me, now you are hanging your head on the “Y’all all crazy, hormonal and irrational” you male privlege is showing.
We are completely rational. Just because we don’t agree and are not moved by your obfuscation and redirection techniques does not mean we are not rational. It means we don’t agree.
And there I thought you were atypical. but alas when in an argument you are not winning, declare the women who disagree with you irrational or illogical and presto, you win!
Not on this blog. you still have not answered the question. Wy not acknowledge sexism within the Black community? What will it cost you to say “Hey it exists!”
Oh so your privilege just HAPPENED?? It was an accident!! Accidental Privilege.
That is an irrational response in my opinion, no matter who it comes from; man, woman or child. You are not winning this argument as shown by how you repeatedly ask someone to acknowledge something that you have not shown sufficient evidence of its existence to any significant degree. I’ll acknowledge that sexism exists in the black community and any other community and such sexism targets the male gender at least as much as it targets the female gender. But I doubt that you want to hear that being that you sole priority is with how victimized black women are. The notion of the modern day woman being oppressed is mostly myth and mostly the result of demagoguery.
Rich on 09.10.08 at 8:46 pm wrote:
…Most men will jump in front of bullets to save their wives while most wives would not do the same for their husbands. …
Actually, the reality is that most women are the unlucky recipients of the bullets (or punches or stabbings or rapes, etc.) that their husbands or boyfriends or fathers or uncles or brothers inflict upon her.
Rich, black women are not being defended against a possible murderous attack from a stranger by black men, as you have mentioned in your comment. Black women are not being defended in the same numbers as we are being made the victims of violence–including murder–by the hands of the men whom we consider to be our loved ones.
There is a myth that says that men who are black cannot oppress women who are black because they are black and “oppressed.” There is nothing logical behind this statement and belief. There is no proof that men who are black cannot oppress women who are black based on skin color and their own personal circumstances. There is no proof that a man who is black cannot oppress a woman who is black because he does not own the news station.
Black men are NOT oppressed. This is a myth and is driven by those who want to benefit from the image that black men are “oppressed.” Black men have privledges based off their gender.
Any random black man expects a black woman to cater to his opinions and thoughts without earning any sort of trust simply because they are male, black and “oppressed.” Men who are black respond in a VERY hostile manner when a woman who is black does not respond to their “right” to keep things in place.
This totally disarms black women of their natural defenses and leaves them as prey to the numerous predators in black America.
ANYONE (male or FEMALE) who uses the tactic is a predator and knows what they are doing. This leaves black women totally defenseless and it covers up what is happening to black women today.
Black males use this privilege to cover up why they do not take care of their children on the level that other men do. There is a “special” set of rules for men who are black in regards to their children because they are black and oppressed. A black woman will be silenced in one way or another if they speak out about the lack of black male figures at home. Many lies, statistics, and other things will be used to cover up the shameful fact that MANY black men are no where to be found when their daughters are raped, went missing or were molested. Many black men will cover up that black men are no where around to protect their black daughters
Women who are black also need to be VERY aware that other black women will hold them because they benefit from this oppression. There is an extremely intelligent set of people who are oppressing black women. It is done through fear tactics, violence, self-doubt, confusion, distraction, manipulation and guilt.
Women who are black are just women period. You do not tell a group of women to just exert themselves and take self-defense lessons to change their circumstances. You tell them to leave. Black women are not men.
We are past the point of “talking about sexism” in black America. Black women have talked to black men and their answer is “I do not care if I harm you.” Things are out of control and black women need to know that it is time to get out of the inner cities where violence and sexual violence is the norm. ANYONE who tells a black women in ANYWAY that they are to stay and “fight the good fight” in way or another is just another predator. They are just as bad as the rapists and murders running around in black American disgused as “oppressed black men.”
Black women cannot control black men. Black women do not have that capability. Men listen to men. It is a waste of time to debate this. We are PAST that point. There are no black men who are coming to help out black women in their current situations because they AGREE with what is occurring. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.
@Gem
“This is a discussion about helping people to recognize sexism within the Black community.”
No this is not this is a whine session, you can tell by the lack of solutions and the finger pointing.
“How did it turn into Blame.”
The moment some one put black in front of male on a list that is universal to all male dominate societies.
“The reason the man came up with the list is because people don’t recognize it.”
Your right people dont recognize it but I recognize a hustler when I see one and he aint helping any one but himself.
“Remember, WE didn’t come up with the list. Your Brotha Jewel came up with it.”
YOU sure didnt mind posting work by by a lazy bum who ripped off some one else’s work “Barry Deutsch’s The Male Privilege Checklist” and colored it black .
And He is as much a brotha of mine as Karrine Steffans is a “sista” of yours.
“DOn’t worry I suspect people are coming on with their stats next week. ”
I can flip any stat to shift blame on black women thats how stats work.
@mekare
” black women need to know that it is time to get out of the inner cities where violence and sexual violence is the norm”
Like those things dont happen anywhere else?
Bump that are you for real?
Not one thing you said was backed by any facts or made a lick of sense.
Are you even a black women?
Never mind.
I am going to show you all how some real Black Male Privilege works by excercising my privilege not to come back to this topic again.
Rich! My brother in black woman oppression- GLAD YOU’RE BACK.
Together, we can continue to use our black male privilege to oppress these uppity black women victims who are powerless to pursue careers, education, and independence.
Let’s divide and conquer: you get these WAOD readers to stop reading and thinking all the damn time, and I’ll get those Spelman women to drop out of college.
Ready…break!!
“Actually, the reality is that most women are the unlucky recipients of the bullets (or punches or stabbings or rapes, etc.) that their husbands or boyfriends or fathers or uncles or brothers inflict upon her.”
Correction: men are much more ruthless toward other men when it comes to bullets, punches or stabbings or rapes, etc. Think Abu Grahib. Torture. POWs. Prison rape. Bar fights. Gang fights. Police brutality (have you ever heard of an unarmed black woman getting shot 50 times?). Wars. Lynchings. A man will seriously injure or kill another man for “lookin’ at me da wrong way”.
“Rich, black women are not being defended against a possible murderous attack from a stranger by black men, as you have mentioned in your comment.”
Neither are black men, who are killed at much higher numbers by other men, so what’s your point?
“I am saying that black men are given a pass on irresponsible sexual behavior, which is a sign of black male privilege.”
CORRECTION: Black women are given a pass, because when the woman gets knocked up, she is seen as the victim, and the man is seen as a dog.
They both chose not to use a condom, so quit yer whinin’.
I’m trying to find the income data about black women, but I think I got it from census data. White men, white women, Asian women, Black women, and then Black men in terms of the income hierarchy.
Every group on the list has its down and out members. I can see white men all the time on the streets begging for money, for example.
I am inspired by the power and genius of black women these days! Wow, amazing! Don’t ever forget to stop and celebrate real progress now and then!
And I suppose the acceptance of light skinned black males was pulled out of the sky with pumkin pie.
I am also to think that black males in this country determinre the standard of beauty since we own all forms of media.
Oh wait we dont.
So I wonder who is to blame for the euro-centric love affair of beauty?–CLNMike
Black men are to blame for their degradation of dark skinned women while uplifting those with lighter skin. No other race of men have rejected the female members of their race like black men have. The preference for a euro standard of beauty does not affect Asian, or Latin men like it does black males. Even if white men parade white womanhood all over the media, black men didn’t have to embrace that. None of this is to say that a black man shouldn’t marry other races, it is to say that they generally have not appreciated black women as much as they have been appreciated (by black women). I’ve gotten to the point where it pains me to listen to black women speak of black men with divine adoration. This may anger a lot of people, but I strongly believe that black women should see all men as “potentials” instead of just black men. But ultimately, its her decision to make.
Women who are black are just women period. You do not tell a group of women to just exert themselves and take self-defense lessons to change their circumstances. You tell them to leave. Black women are not men.–Makere
I don’t think a woman is less of a woman if she protects herself or her children. One of the ways to protect herself is to leave “the ghetto”, but what if she can’t leave right away? I attended a women’s shooting class being the only black woman there. I see no reason why white women are allowed to protect themselves by any means necessary and black women aren’t.
CORRECTION: Black women are given a pass, because when the woman gets knocked up, she is seen as the victim, and the man is seen as a dog.
Add to that, the number of black men sitting in jail for their inability to pay child support or the number of black men whose ‘baby mommas’ pull every string and do everything in their power to keep them from seeing their children. These men are definitely not given a pass.
Black men are to blame for their degradation of dark skinned women while uplifting those with lighter skin. No other race of men have rejected the female members of their race like black men have.
So light skinned black women are not part of their race?
The preference for a euro standard of beauty does not affect Asian, or Latin men like it does black males.
So are you saying that Hispanic women are less euro looking than light skinned black women? Have you seen beauty contests in Hispanic countries? Have you not noticed that the women in those contests are fairer and more Caucasian looking than most of the women of those countries? Have you not noticed the attraction white men have toward Asian women?
And if Asian men don’t have a preference for euro standards of beauty, why are Asian women bleaching their skin and surgically altering their eyes to such a large degree in order to look more euro?
The funny thing is that all of my life, black women, many of whom are dark, are much more likely to rave over how pretty or cute a light skinned girl or baby is as opposed to a dark skinned girl or baby. I have known black mothers who look down on their sons bringing home dark skinned girls. When I have been questioned as to why I am dating a dark skinned woman, it has always been black women around me who have questioned this. The men really didn’t care who I dated.
The greatest insults I have heard directed at dark skinned people in general have come from black women.
None of this is to say that a black man shouldn’t marry other races, it is to say that they generally have not appreciated black women as much as they have been appreciated (by black women).
I’m sure that this is based solely on your personal perception and not based on anything concrete.
“No other race of men have rejected the female members of their race like black men have. The preference for a euro standard of beauty does not affect Asian, or Latin men like it does black males.”
Actually, it does.
You are right about the light-skin/dark-skin factor, but Asian women are getting eyelid surgery and skin bleaching. Brazil has a horrible problem with preferring light skin. The Hispanic channels on satellite show mostly light skinned people. India’s Untouchables are dark-skinned.
It’s a huge problem with people of color globally.
I’m trying to find the income data about black women, but I think I got it from census data. White men, white women, Asian women, Black women, and then Black men in terms of the income hierarchy.
http://www-cpr.maxwell.syr.edu/pbriefs/pb33.pdf
“Indeed, black women earn 83
percent of what black men earn, while white women earn just 69 percent of what white men earn (Padavic and Reskin 2002).”
In a nutshell:
The Majority of white men are attracted to white women. Even among those who are attracted to Asians, they still generally do not reject the women of their group on a level that black men do.
Re: the comment that light skinned women aren’t part of the race, that wasn’t my point. My point is that black men generally embrace a euro standard of beauty that men of other races generally do not. I reiterate, there are men of other races who like white women. The point is, no other race of men denigrates their women on the level that black men do.
Re: Asians men do not generally prefer euro beauty over asian beauty. However, I believe that the eye surgery and such is due to the fact that Asian women are similar to black men…they will readily go for the opposite sex of the dominant race. In other words, we see these trends because of Asian women, not necessarily the men.
Rich,
self-hating black women certainly exist. But black women are more open to darker men than black men are to darker women. Black men also love hair. Ask any black woman, myself included, you will get more attention from black men the longer and straigher your hair is.
from the author of the list:
“Invariably, the Black Male Privileges Checklist will inspire some men to create their own list describing the list of privileges they believe black women benefit from.
“What men need to understand is that paying attention to male privilege does not mean that women are without faults. Rather, it means that black men cannot be blind to the facts that black men earn more than black women do, black men continue to dominate most of the political, religious, and cultural institutions within the black community, and that black men continue to dominate black women in areas of physical and sexual abuse.
“As “men of color”, we have a responsibility to acknowledge that we participate in this system even though it offers us little rewards.”
“But black women are more open to darker men than black men are to darker women. Black men also love hair. Ask any black woman, myself included, you will get more attention from black men the longer and straigher your hair is.”
You’re right about that. A lot of black men are color struck.
What on earth do black women want? A black man in a sharp suit and shiny shoes is good..but not good enough. He must, ideally, be biracial. If he is, you feel complete, if he is not, he just is not.
And you talk about us men going off after white women? Get you frizzy head in order first, and then lets rap.
Excellent post. But, note that up until recent years Rev. Willie T. Barrow (a very fiesty and courageous woman)was the Board Chairman for Rainbow/PUSH Coalition. She has gotten up in age and retired a few years ago. She is now the Chairman Emertitus.
Black women love their sons and raise their daughters. In my state, the “commission on the social status of black men” exists. All the commission does is b*tch and moan.
“But black women are more open to darker men than black men are to darker women. Black men also love hair. Ask any black woman, myself included, you will get more attention from black men the longer and straigher your hair is.”
You’re right about that. A lot of black men are color struck.–Mod 2
LOL, right. But honestly though I don’t blame people for their preferences. I’m one of the few black women who prefers lighter men (especially latins and hapas). But one thing I’ll never do is bash dark men or black men in general. It’s the bashing and intraracial hatred that I cannot stand.
I late to this thread but some of the responses here are just mindboggling. I think alot of people have missed the general point of the piece, I don’t think the author is saying men are actively oppressing women but they do benefit from the same system that gives white people advantages over people of color, able bodied people over disabled people, who are in upper classes . Also this idea of female privilege is bullshit. Even though women are allowed or expected to cry we’re labeled as emotional or irrational, if we veer in the opposite direction we’re cold, mean, bitches. I agree the construction of gender is extremely problematic and is and example of this system hurts men as well. Not mention street harrassment, do I deserve to be harassed and followed because I’m out at night btw, I was wearing a winter coat so I was well covered. But beyond that do I deserve to have guys scream “your fucking us” out of their car while walking around on my campus I place we’re I’m supposed to feel reasonably safe. This is a foray to response to amorn. Not mention hair issues, if you relax it black women can be construed as self-hating conforming to euro-centric beauty standards which is an issue I still struggle with but with natural hair your seen as more aggressive or militant. In terms of the “beauty hierarchy” black women are pretty much on the lowest rung and even that rung has a color/hair hierarchy. I agree that black men face a whole lot of problems however when it comes to issues that affect black women or women in general I fail to see a lot of the outrage. We’re you as pissed when you found out when Sarah Palin had a role in charging rape victims for their rape kits or did that even register on your radar? Could you imagine having female relative violated like that, then possibly letting the person getting away because you or they couldn’t pay the 1200 so they could collect the evidence? Or that fact our reproductive rights are in danger, even if you don’t agree with abortion, access to birth control and other contraception are being considerably limited. I wish these issues were addressed in some form within the black community, besides the some internet groups I frequent. Sorry about my response being so long.
@amron
And you talk about us men going off after white women? Get you frizzy head in order first, and then lets rap.
Wow just wow seriously. So are you against women having natural hair. Are you going to pay for your girlfriend to go to salon and get it permed every damn month. I have relaxed hair and as much I like it still a pain in the ass to take care of. Not the mention the issue of how much am buying into white racism by doing so. So I don’t want to hear this frizzy hair bull. Unless you have big afro or dreadlocks that you have to maintain and pay extra for I don’t want to hear it.
They guys on this thread remind of white guys harping about reverse racism.
Rich said
I’ll acknowledge that sexism exists in the black community and any other community and such sexism targets the male gender at least as much as it targets the female gender
Does racism in America target whites at least as much as it targets blacks?
“Does racism in America target whites at least as much as it targets blacks?”
No, but they do get it.
Wait a sec.. did I not say I was not coming back to this one?
Damn it!
“do not tell a group of women to just exert themselves and take self-defense lessons to change their circumstances. You tell them to leave. Black women are not men”
Lormarie,
I just work on black women. Black men being “oppressed” is irrelvant. Who cares? It’s not our problem. Just keep helping black women.
Lormarie,
I do want to warn you that this is dangerous conversation. Black men will say that they are oppressed and if you relieve them of their oppression, then they will stop mistreateing black women. WRONG. This thinking prevents black women from doing what they need to do to help themselves. Black men degrade black women because they want to. They are men and we are and see things for what they really are. Stop judging black men and see them as men who are black. Now, how does the personal situation of a man who is black matter when he is hurting you? Do you see how abusive this is?
You know what, I’m going about this the wrong way. This is not about right and wrong. This about what people can do to fix the situation. Everyone has to admit that black women are getting hurt and take the needed steps to remedy the situation.
I just don’t know sometimes.
Hi Mekare,
I honestly agree with you that we should not be so concerned about black men. But my point was the following: As harsh as I may sound toward black men, I must speak the truth. When I say that black men have no power to oppress, I mean that they are basically the lowest on the totem pole in the US, even below that of black women. It was in no way shape or form meant to excuse black men or give them a pass. Because black women are viewed as less threatening (socially, career, etc), many black men have come to resent us. Many also act on or attempt to act on their resentment. For a long time, black women would make excuses for the bad behavior of black males. But now, I’m seeing more and more black women taking attitudes that we have.
Re: men who are black
I agree. in a previous post I mentioned that I feel no kinship with black men outside of my family. I meant that with all sincerity of heart. To illustrate my point, I’m objective whenever I hear about claims of police brutality against black men. For a long time, I’d automatically jump on the side of the black man who was at the receiving end of the violence…that is because I felt kinship with black men. Once I freely admitted that the black guy could have been a thug who threatened the cop’s person, I knew that kinship was gone.
Thus, the ridiculous black male privilege list (I know the authors here didn’t come up with the list. I’m familiar with it from previous blogs). When you look down on the list, it describes some pretty disgusting things. If those thoughts are running through the minds of black men, then racists are justified in describing them as potential rapists, etc. I wonder if Jewel realized that before publishing the list and applying it to black men.
So again, I don’t know how to make my position any clearer. Fighting and winning against black male anger (at black women) is far easier than fighting white male supremacy. That is because black men have no more power or clout than black women have.
The Majority of white men are attracted to white women.
The majority of black men are attracted to black women.
Even among those who are attracted to Asians, they still generally do not reject the women of their group on a level that black men do.
That is a baseless perception that is not supported by statistics.
Re: the comment that light skinned women aren’t part of the race, that wasn’t my point. My point is that black men generally embrace a euro standard of beauty that men of other races generally do not.
And that was shown to be inaccurate when we reference Hispanic beauty queens and surgery among Asian women. What is interesting is the attraction many black men have toward half black/half Asian women. You have no European in that mix.
I reiterate, there are men of other races who like white women. The point is, no other race of men denigrates their women on the level that black men do.
Again, I say that this is a baseless perception. I can equally say that no other race of women denigrates it men on the level that black women do.
Re: Asians men do not generally prefer euro beauty over asian beauty.
And you base this on what?
However, I believe that the eye surgery and such is due to the fact that Asian women are similar to black men…they will readily go for the opposite sex of the dominant race.
That’s reaching. I’m certainly not seeing many black men having plastic surgery, so your comparison doesn’t fit. And face it. The reason that you see so few Asian men with other races of women is based on them being rejected by other groups of women, not them rejecting other groups of women.
In other words, we see these trends because of Asian women, not necessarily the men.
So in essence, I can say that black men desire “ero” features because black women constantly straighten their dye their hair blond and run from the sun. Thus, we see these trends because of Black women, not necessarily the men.
self-hating black women certainly exist. But black women are more open to darker men than black men are to darker women.
All women are more open to darker men than men are to darker women. Also, men are more visual when it comes to attraction and women place less emphasis on looks. And there is a common worldwide PERCEPTION that lighter complexion is more feminine.
Another important point is that when back females describe other black females as “pretty”, they themselves are usually referencing the light skinned women and it is not uncommon for black mothers (even dark ones) to openly desire for their sons to hook up with light skinned girls and to avoid dark skinned girls.
Black men also love hair. Ask any black woman, myself included, you will get more attention from black men the longer and straigher your hair is.
That is because folks are more comfortable with what is normal and straightening their hair is overwhelmingly what is normal for black women. Also, many black women express attraction to bald black men or men with braids. It is all the same. That is the black mans options for eliminating nappy hair.
Checklists like this only serve one purpose: to deride those mentioned in the list. This list essentially states that black males’ lives are wonderful escapades enjoyed at black women’s expensive. However, while some of the items on the list are true, the irony is that the overwhelming majority of time black men are at the forefront of racism in our society. Being such, it is not unlikely that the people who will most likely be at the forefront of the civil rights movement would be men.
The greater irony is that black men in the United States face far more disadvantages than black women. They are less likely to graduate college, less likely to have high paying jobs, less likely to be promoted, less likely to be hired, more likely to die at an early age, more likely to be victims of intentional and random violence, more likely to be murdered, more likely to be victims of racial profiling, more likely to drop out of school, more likely to suffer from health problems, more likely to be viewed as criminals and dangerous and more likely to end up in jail or prison.
The irony is that black women (apparently mostly black feminists) are essentially claiming that being subject to all of the above is a privilege, which has the added implication that black men have no legitimate complaints about their treatment in society, and more importantly that black women experience no advantages as a result of both their race and gender.
In other the words, the list is completely contradictory and grossly inaccurate and those that support it appear both hypocritical and sexist and ironically suggests that black men deserve the condemnation and general antagonism they receive from both black women and society at large.
Rich,
I’d have to say that your response is typical of most black males, rather than take some responsibility, you blame others (whether its the system, the white man, or black women). You also don’t take into account many important facts of life. For example, you stated:
“All women are more open to darker men than men are to darker women. Also, men are more visual when it comes to attraction and women place less emphasis on looks. And there is a common worldwide PERCEPTION that lighter complexion is more feminine.”
All women are not more open to darker men…black women are. For example, white men are generally preferred over black men by white, Asian, and hispanic women. If you go into the zone of reproduction (or reprotech) blond nordic men are preferred over dark men. The last time I checked, white men are much lighter than black men. Therefore, there is no worldwide perception that light skin is considered more feminine. The reason is because light skinned women AND men are preferred over dark skinned women And men. Women aren’t going to choose what they consider to be feminine (if she’s straight). I should also add that being considered the least desired (women or men) doesn’t mean undesired.
That’s reaching. I’m certainly not seeing many black men having plastic surgery, so your comparison doesn’t fit. And face it. The reason that you see so few Asian men with other races of women is based on them being rejected by other groups of women, not them rejecting other groups of women.–Rich
It’s only reaching because you either didn’t understand or ignored the comment. The point is that black men and Asian women are quicker to date out than Asian men or black women. I don’t know if your assertion about Asian men and rejection is true. The same is claimed about black women (usually by black males). The truth is, more black women don’t date out because we are often closed minded about it. Just about every nonblack man I heard speak on this says that most of the resistance to IR dating for black women comes from black women rather than men of other races. My point is, it could be that Asian men are closed minded as well rather than victims of constant rejection.
Another important point is that when back females describe other black females as “pretty”, they themselves are usually referencing the light skinned women and it is not uncommon for black mothers (even dark ones) to openly desire for their sons to hook up with light skinned girls and to avoid dark skinned girls.–Rich
Such women certainly exist. Then again, I’m a black WOMAN. We aren’t afraid to criticize other black women or admit our shortcomings. That’s the first step to advancement.
That is because folks are more comfortable with what is normal and straightening their hair is overwhelmingly what is normal for black women. Also, many black women express attraction to bald black men or men with braids. It is all the same. That is the black mans options for eliminating nappy hair.–Rich
Again, that doesn’t explain why black women (with nappy/natural hair, darker skin) have an easier time with men of other races than black men…at least from what I’m told. Also, I work in the fashion industry in addition to my day job as a teacher. It is no longer uncommon to see a very dark, African looking model on the catwalk. White designers use them, but I never see them in black music videos. As I explained before, black American men have a problem.
“Black men will say that they are oppressed and if you relieve them of their oppression, then they will stop mistreateing black women. WRONG. This thinking prevents black women from doing what they need to do to help themselves. Black men degrade black women because they want to.”
So true. So true.
“They are less likely to graduate college, less likely to have high paying jobs, less likely to be promoted, less likely to be hired, more likely to die at an early age, more likely to be victims of intentional and random violence, more likely to be murdered, more likely to be victims of racial profiling, more likely to drop out of school, more likely to suffer from health problems, more likely to be viewed as criminals and dangerous and more likely to end up in jail or prison.”
You say this as if this stuff just falls out of the sky into BM’s laps. As if choices don’t factor into this at all.
THIS IS DISGUSTING!!!!!!! WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WOMEN AND CHILDREN AND THE KNUCKLEHEADS CAN ONLY THINK ABOUT THEMSELVES!!!
Black women, find other people who want to live and work with them to get out of the hell you are in.
A lot of these idiots are hopeless.
Gina, thank you for what you are doing here.
Focus on women! If you’re not doing that in this blog, then you need to move over to black men 101 somewhere else.
We are calling out the black male civil rights establishment and the sexism of black males. This is about justice for women.
Guess this last little post silenced the guys.
Mod 2:
Thanks for linking to my site.
I’m a bit puzzled, though, how you know my co-blogger’s skin colour, when even I don’t.
Thanks for writing this.
This “list” being written by a man means zero. A man that doesn’t have or make any sense is still a ‘male’ at the end of the day, but that doesn’t substantiate his claims. The power structure in this country is established by white supremacy – always has been. A Black-skinned President means only so much if there aren’t enough Black people in actual control of real money, advertising, banking, etc. I say all that to note that regardless of Black women being misrepresented in “Black” social organizations, as someone who consistently is trying to work with different types of organizations all I have seen for years are women, incl. Black women, employed heavily in these places. As someone involved in the media as well, Black women permeate the offices of film, television and radio in positions of Power – not just as support staff. In high contrast, search for the Black men. Although we Black men may be radio hosts, film directors, etc., we can’t ‘greenlight’ our own projects, but the sisters are in position to do so. The head of BET is a black woman, but little has changed there. How do you explain this? The Radio One empire was started and is still run (it’s a public company now) by a Black woman. Power. Even look at the job market. A Black woman can get a simple job quicker than a man. Guaranteed. Just ask any brother out there looking for a job. Even if you want to relegate things to the ‘hood, Section 8 and other welfare-like programs insist(ed) that men not be in the home in order for women to attain lifestyle benefits. You don’t have to believe me though, go do your own research. To close, I say all this to say that the Black Male power structure in this society is a fallacy. While there are many of us in places of power, we fought for those positions, but so did the sisters and frankly they are overtaking a lot of us in those ranks as well. Don’t just idly and believe what I or anyone else says, go do your studying and observations as well and then figure it out for yourself what’s the truth and what isn’t.